TE: The context of this is people like Moses who sinned at the rock, right? Someone who is saved and commits a sin in a moment of weakness, and has not yet repented. Yes, these saved people are saved.

MM: What is the evidence? How does God know they would have repented?

The evidence is their character. God knows what people are like. There is also the evidence of their lives. We have a long history to judge Moses by. Plus there’s all those books he wrote, which also gives an idea as to what he is like.

TE: The difference is that God’s imputing or not imputing repentance is not the issue. The issue is whether or not they love God and the principles of His government.

MM: Again, what is the evidence? How does God know they love God and the principles of His government? Why is repentance sometimes required and sometimes not?

Repentance is always necessary. Repentance is a change of direction, a change of heart. It’s usually thought of as sorrow for sin, but that’s just one aspect. Moses was going in the right direction. He was immediately sorry for what he had done.

I don’t understand why you would think it a problem to know Moses’ character. He had been following God for many years. It’s not the occasional misdeed that determines character. What Moses did was an occasional misdeed. Moses’ true character was clear.

TE: But you believe they are not lost. Why not? What does God base it on?

TE: “He makes judgment based on knowing a person's character, not on the basis of foreknowledge.”

MM: Since you do not believe God knows our future choices with 100% accuracy, how, then, can you believe God can save anyone based on their character?

Judgment has always been and always will be on the basis of character. There is no indication anywhere that God does something as speculative as looking to see what choices a person would make in order to judge them. A person could always argue, “No, I wouldn’t have done that.”

The judgment is on the basis of what a person *has* done, not what he might do. The life record is considered, as represented by the books that are opened for judgment.

Are you implying God can determine the future choices they would have made had they not died based on the general trend of their life?

There is no need to determine future choices. Just consider the present character.

If God was unable to know ahead of time if Jesus was going to fail or succeed, how can you say God knows it about someone who sinned when they died?

It?

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TE: You don’t need an inspired statement to apply logic. Everything God says is logical. He doesn’t tell us things so that we will believe on the basis of authority apart from logic. He wants us to be convinced in our own minds that the things He says are true, because we understand the principles involved, not just because He said so.

MM: Tom, be careful. That’s the same rationale David Koresh used to deceive his followers.

Your past history on representing the position of others has not been very accurate (at least, most of the time, you are not accurate in representing my positions), so please allow me to ask you to substantiate this claim with some evidence.

At any rate, even if it were true, it would not mean anything, since (as you should know), an evil person can make statements that are true. At any rate, there is no need to be careful, because the idea I presented is clearly stated, often, in the Spirit of Prophecy. The idea is implicit in Scripture as well (for example, Jesus’ conversation on the road to Emaus)

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TE: Of course, but these statements do not say that the reason God does so is because He foresees what the baby would have done had it lived. That’s what your contention is.

MM: Okay. Now that you have made it clear you think my idea is wrong – What do you think? How can God trust CBTAOA not to rebel in heaven? What does He base His decision on?

I can’t say too much on this, since God has not revealed much about this to us, but it seems reasonable to me God would make the decision based on whether or not He thinks they would be happy in heaven; if they would love God and the principles of His kingdom.

To be clear, I’m not saying that God’s foreknowledge is not involved. When you consider a person’s character, there is an implicit judgment as to how that person will act which takes place. God’s foreknowledge would *verify* His judgment, but it’s not the basis for His judgment.

Also, I should point out, that you’re being a bit logically inconsistent here, although this is a bit tricky to get. If the future is fixed, as you suggest, and God simply watches it like a movie that already occurred, then there is no hypothetical future. There is only the certainty of what is. God cannot look to the future to see what someone would have done, because there is no such thing. There is only what the person will do. Any hypothetical computations like this would have been settled from the very beginning of eternity. If God were to do any cogitating, He would have foreseen that cogitation, and already made His decision.

The inconsistency is that you are presenting the idea of God who reacts to things as they occur (which I believe is accurate; that’s what Scripture presents) with the idea of a future which is determined and known from all eternity, in which case it doesn’t make any sense to suggest that God considers what a person might have done.

I suspect you may have difficulty with this point.

MM: If God was unable to know ahead of time if Jesus was going to fail or succeed, how can you say God knows it about someone who sinned when they died?

TE: It?

MM: God knew the character of Christ perfectly, and yet, according to what you seem to be saying, He was unable to say for certain if Jesus would fail or succeed on the cross. So, how can you say God knows, based on their character, if a person who dies before they can repent would not rebel in heaven? If God didn't know the future of Jesus, how can He know it about sinners? If He didn't know Jesus' future choices based on His perfect character, how can He know it about saved sinners? How can God know they will not fail in the future?

TE: God cannot look to the future to see what someone would have done, because there is no such thing. There is only what the person will do.

MM: There is what the person did do, and God watched it play out ahead of time like a rerun. So, you're right, there is no future for God to watch that did not happen. However, God can infer, based on their character, what they would have done had they not died before they were able to repent, and how they would have lived out the rest of their life. Do you agree? God can also see into the future and watch them live in harmony with His law for eternity. Thus, He has good reasons to believe they will not sin in the future. It is, therefore, based on fact, not on inference or good guessing.

However, this poses a possible problem for the 144,000. What if they sin after probation closes? Jesus will cease His most holy place ministry, and He cannot pardon anyone afterwards. How would God deal with it if they sinned? How will He deal with it if happens in heaven or in the New Earth? Why didn't He handle Adam and Eve the same way in Eden? That is, will God pardon people in heaven based on the general trend of their life and character? If so, why didn't He do so in Eden in the first place?

MM: If God was unable to know ahead of time if Jesus was going to fail or succeed, how can you say God knows it about someone who sinned when they died?

TE: It?

MM: God knew the character of Christ perfectly, and yet, according to what you seem to be saying, He was unable to say for certain if Jesus would fail or succeed on the cross.

Ellen White said God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. If God knew with certainty Christ would succeed, there wouldn’t be any risk, right? Knowing something with certainty, and not knowing something (which risk entails) are mutually exclusive.

So, how can you say God knows, based on their character, if a person who dies before they can repent would not rebel in heaven?

These are different circumstances. Christ had the cross to face. Those being resurrected have heaven to face.

If God didn't know the future of Jesus, how can He know it about sinners? If He didn't know Jesus' future choices based on His perfect character, how can He know it about saved sinners? How can God know they will not fail in the future?

Regarding Jesus Christ, there was a chance Christ could fail or that He would succeed. God saw both possibilities. Regarding the saved and the lost, there still are many different possible futures to consider, but none of the possible futures of the saved involves their sinning, and none of the possible futures of the wicked involves their repenting.

TE: God cannot look to the future to see what someone would have done, because there is no such thing. There is only what the person will do.

MM: There is what the person did do, and God watched it play out ahead of time like a rerun. So, you're right, there is no future for God to watch that did not happen. However, God can infer, based on their character, what they would have done had they not died before they were able to repent, and how they would have lived out the rest of their life. Do you agree?

Yes, God can infer this, and such inference will back up His judgment, but it is not the basis for His judgment.

God can also see into the future and watch them live in harmony with His law for eternity.

Not as one specific future, but God sees every possible future, all of which have them living with Him in harmony for eternity.

Thus, He has good reasons to believe they will not sin in the future.

Yes, He can see that every possible future does not result in sin.

It is, therefore, based on fact, not on inference or good guessing.

Yes, based on the fact of every possible future.

However, this poses a possible problem for the 144,000. What if they sin after probation closes?

Doesn’t happen in any possible future; won’t happen.

Jesus will cease His most holy place ministry, and He cannot pardon anyone afterwards. How would God deal with it if they sinned?

They won’t, but God would deal with repentant sin the same way He always does. He would forgive it, of course.

How will He deal with it if happens in heaven or in the New Earth?

The same way as always, but we know this won’t happen.

Why didn't He handle Adam and Eve the same way in Eden?

The same way as what?

That is, will God pardon people in heaven based on the general trend of their life and character?

They won’t sin. There is nothing to pardon.

If so, why didn't He do so in Eden in the first place?

He did. God pardoned Adam and Eve. I don’t know what you’re tying to ask here.

Let me see if I understand what you’re saying. God was unable to predict, based on Jesus’ perfect character, if He would fail or succeed in the future. Is that right?


Don’t they face judgment first, of which the cross was a type? So, again, does God know, based on their character, that people who die in the throes of sinning, who die before they can repent, that they will succeed in judgment? that they will not rebel in heaven? If so, why, then, didn't He know, based on Jesus' perfect character, that He would succeed?


“…none of the possible futures of the saved involves their sinning.” How does God know? How is it possible that God knows it about them, and yet He didn’t know it about Jesus?

“…none of the possible futures of the wicked involves their repenting.” How can you be so certain?


What is the basis of His judgment in such cases? Character? The general trend of their life? If so, why didn't He know, based on Jesus' character, that He would succeed on the cross?


How can you be so certain?


How can you be so certain they won’t sin after probation closes? What makes you think God would forgive them if they sinned after Jesus ceases interceding?


How can you be so certain no one will sin in heaven or in the new earth? What makes you think God would pardon them if they sinned?


Why didn’t He just pardon them? Why allow 6,000 years of sinning and dying?


But if they did, on basis would He pardon them?

Let me see if I understand what you’re saying. God was unable to predict, based on Jesus’ perfect character, if He would fail or succeed in the future. Is that right?

If you're asking if Jesus could have failed, the answer is yes, He could have failed. If you're asking if God foresaw that possibility, the answer is yes again. If you're asking if God was unable to predict what Christ would do, the answer is not. Clearly God was able to predict what Christ would do.

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MM: So, how can you say God knows, based on their character, if a person who dies before they can repent would not rebel in heaven?

These are different circumstances. Christ had the cross to face. Those being resurrected have heaven to face.

Don’t they face judgment first, of which the cross was a type? So, again, does God know, based on their character, that people who die in the throes of sinning, who die before they can repent, that they will succeed in judgment?

Yes. God knows those who love Him and the principles of His government.

that they will not rebel in heaven? If so, why, then, didn't He know, based on Jesus' perfect character, that He would succeed?

You're comparing apples and oranges. The circumstances are not the same.

The only reason I know the things I am asserting is because of inspiration. We are told, "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss." I've shared this statement with friends that are not SDA's, at this is as clear to them as it is to me. Risk is a very simple concept to understand. Children understand it. Uncertainty is implicit in risk. This concept explains why insider trading is illegal.

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If God didn't know the future of Jesus, how can He know it about sinners? If He didn't know Jesus' future choices based on His perfect character, how can He know it about saved sinners? How can God know they will not fail in the future?

Regarding Jesus Christ, there was a chance Christ could fail or that He would succeed. God saw both possibilities. Regarding the saved and the lost, there still are many different possible futures to consider, but none of the possible futures of the saved involves their sinning, and none of the possible futures of the wicked involves their repenting.

“…none of the possible futures of the saved involves their sinning.” How does God know?

Because He sees every possible future. Say two football teams are to play one another, one a great team, and the other terrible. Perhaps there are a billion different outcomes to the game. Perhaps in not of these billion possibile outcomes does the terrible team beat the great team by 40 points. God could state with certainty that the terrible team would not be the great team by 40 points.

How is it possible that God knows it about them, and yet He didn’t know it about Jesus?

You don't need to ask the same question over and over.

“…none of the possible futures of the wicked involves their repenting.” How can you be so certain?

Because God has told us they won't rebel.

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TE: God cannot look to the future to see what someone would have done, because there is no such thing. There is only what the person will do.

MM: There is what the person did do, and God watched it play out ahead of time like a rerun. So, you're right, there is no future for God to watch that did not happen. However, God can infer, based on their character, what they would have done had they not died before they were able to repent, and how they would have lived out the rest of their life. Do you agree?

Yes, God can infer this, and such inference will back up His judgment, but it is not the basis for His judgment.

What is the basis of His judgment in such cases? Character?

Yes.

The general trend of their life? If so, why didn't He know, based on Jesus' character, that He would succeed on the cross?

You don't have to ask the same question over and over again.

Clearly Christ could have failed because inspiration emphasizes this fact over and over again. If Christ could have failed, surely God would have foreseen this possibility. The fact that we are told that God sent His Son at "a more feafrul risk" makes is clear that God undertook a risk in sending His Son.

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God can also see into the future and watch them live in harmony with His law for eternity. Thus, He has good reasons to believe they will not sin in the future. It is, therefore, based on fact, not on inference or good guessing.

Not as one specific future, but God sees every possible future, all of which have them living with Him in harmony for eternity. Yes, He can see that every possible future does not result in sin.

How can you be so certain?

Because He told us sin would not arise again.

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However, this poses a possible problem for the 144,000. What if they sin after probation closes? Jesus will cease His most holy place ministry, and He cannot pardon anyone afterwards. How would God deal with it if they sinned?

They won’t, but God would deal with repentant sin the same way He always does. He would forgive it, of course.

How can you be so certain they won’t sin after probation closes? What makes you think God would forgive them if they sinned after Jesus ceases interceding?

Why do you ask the same questions so many times?

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How will He deal with it if happens in heaven or in the New Earth?

The same way as always, but we know this won’t happen.

How can you be so certain no one will sin in heaven or in the new earth? What makes you think God would pardon them if they sinned?

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Why didn't He handle Adam and Eve the same way in Eden?

The same way as what?

Why didn’t He just pardon them?

He did.

Why allow 6,000 years of sinning and dying?

How is this question related to your previous one? Death and dying are the result of rebellion against God. God has been working to remove sin from the universe as quickly as possible from the very beginning. No one desire more the end of sin than God, or is working harder to eliminate it.

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That is, will God pardon people in heaven based on the general trend of their life and character?

They won’t sin. There is nothing to pardon.

But if they did, on basis would He pardon them?

On the same basis He pardons everyone. God is love.

Tom, thank you for answering my questions. I'm still not clear why you believe God can know with 100% certainty, based on character, who will or will not succeed in the future, and yet insist God did not know it about Jesus. Also, the inference that God would pardon people if they sinned after Jesus ceases His most holy place ministry is unsettling.

Tom, thank you for answering my questions. I'm still not clear why you believe God can know with 100% certainty, based on character, who will or will not succeed in the future, and yet insist God did not know it about Jesus.

God has told us that sin will not arise again. So we know, based on God's word, there is no risk that that will happen. On the other hand, God has revealed to us that He sent His Son at "a more fearful risk," at "the risk of failure and eternal loss." So clearly He has seen in the one case that there is no risk and in the other that there was.

Regarding the question of character, the test that Jesus had to face was a once in a universe event. It was no simple matter. It is not even comporable to the righteous being in heaven.


Also, the inference that God would pardon people if they sinned after Jesus ceases His most holy place ministry is unsettling.

The problem is not with God. It never has been. The problem is on the part of God's creatures. When Jesus ceases His ministry in the MHP, all the righteous will have been settled into the truth, while the unrighteous will all have committed the unpardonable sin, which is to say so hardened their heart that they no longer have the desire or capacity to respond to God's wooing.