Mike, you asked:

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. . . are you suggesting that they experienced the investigative judgment that Jesus initiated in the MHP of the heavenly sanctuary beginning in 1844?

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Yes. If the MHP ministry of Christ transcends time, the whole of it does, including the judgment of the living. We've assumed that the Judgment of the Living is one grand event. But there is an individual aspect and a corporate aspect to it. For individuals it is an ongoing process.

Jesus said "This is the judgment, that light is come into the world and men loved darkeness rather than light." The faith of individuals who accept Christ as their Savior is on trial from the moment of conversion. I believe that process is the judgment of the living. The great issue is will the believer by faith working through love put on the righteousness of Christ.

You state:

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As I understand it, if we are among the living when our cases are examined and a favorable destiny awarded, we will be numbered and sealed among the 144,000 and consequently we will not taste death before Jesus returns to translate us. Plus Jesus will blot out our record and memory of the specific sins we committed throughout our lifetime.

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This is the corporate aspect you’re referring to. The Jews filled up their cup corporately with the stoning of Stephen, and the guilt of ‘all the righteous blood of the saints’ came on them. In a similar way, when the saints reflect the character of Christ fully, they will have filled up the cup of righteousness and be awarded with translation. We can’t assume that all 144,000 will be from our generation. All we know about the 144,000 is that they are perfected, and have on the robe of Christ’s righteousness.

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As yet I don't know of anyone since Adam who has had this experience while still alive here on earth? This would indicate that the MHP experience of the living is still a future thing for God's people. However, I do acknowledge that it is already an experience for God Himself, due to His ability to occupy eternity

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If Enoch and Elijah didn’t experience vindication in the Most Holy Place, how could they have title to heaven? The same with Moses and the resurrected saints that Christ took with Him 2000 years ago.. Their sins went before hand to judgment. If their sins are still on the books of record in heaven, satan would be permitted to keep accusing them. If satan can maintain an accusation of sin against them, he can retain them under the power of death. I believe their sins have been blotted out.

This is why Heb 6:2 refers to "eternal judgment". God's verdict in our favour transcends time.

When the central bank of a strong government with a strong economy issues notes, they are issuing promises to pay. Yet we don’t even think of it in those terms. We think of it as current obligations - currency. The same with God. His promises are His currency.

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

I would like to suggest the people you mentioned that are already in heaven are an exception to the rule. Otherwise we might be cornered into believing that when we die we go either to heaven or hell.

Also, I might suggest that the investigative judgment of the living is an individual experience, but that the final overall results have corporate implications.

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24. {GC 483.1}

"Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {GC 488.2}

Here is the main thought from the first post;

"Just as the saints before the cross looked forward by faith to the sacrifice of the Messiah, the same saints looked by faith to the ministry of Messiah (Anointed One) within the Holiest to secure their complete redemption."

SDA's have little difficulty with the idea that the sacrifice of Christ in 31 AD embraces all the saint before and after the cross. We need to be consistent and apply the same thinking to 1844. Christ did not die until 31 AD, but by faith in His future sacrifice Enoch was translated. I say, Enoch was also translated by faith in Christ's future Most Holy Place ministy. His ministry within the Holiest reaches back and was effective in the lives of all the saints who lived before 1844.

I agree with the quotes from Ellen White about the timing and sequence of the IJ. In addition to what she says, I'm adding the idea that the saints who lived before 1844 could look forward to the time when the books are opened in the same way that we can.

Can you explain Mike how my ideas would lead to people believing that we go directly to heaven? The results of the judgment, like the death of Christ, reach forward and backwark, but the giving of the rewards is sequential.

We need to account for the election of the saints that the Apostles frequently wrote about. The eternal aspects of the judgment help explain what they were saying without destroying the free will of the believer on the one hand and without falling into the error of once saved always saved on the other.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark, that thought about heaven and hell was in the context of using how God deviated from the norm to allow those people to be in heaven before the appointed time to suggest that our memory and record of sin is blotted out now.

I like the idea you're introducing suggesting that the blotting out of sin is a reality from eternity past to eternity future based on what God started doing in 1844. But I'm still not clear how this idea relates to the experience of the 144,000 when their names and cases come up for review during the MOB crisis? Can you explain that part of your idea?

I don't think that the sins of those who are in heaven are still on heaven's books. If the judgment is eternal, then the sins of the saints have in fact been blotted out eternally.

When satan disputed with Christ over the body of Moses, Christ said to him, "The Lord rebuke you, satan". God had issued the verdict in favour of Moses at some point after 1844. But the verdict reached back to allow for his resurrection. If the sins of Moses were still on the books of record, satan's accusations would have barred God from resurrecting him.

The idea of eternal judgment means that the judgment of the living is now. The MOB crisis will only reveal what's in our hearts.

Don't forget about God's foreknowledge in the results of everything including the results of the investigative judgment.

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Mark, actually I agree with the thought that, from God's infinite perspective, the results of the judgment of the living date back from eternity.

However, my question concerns the actual experience of God's people during the MOB crisis when their names and cases come up for review. What it will be like from their finite human perspective?

Also, I agree that the sins of those saints already in heaven were blotted out. But Moses and Elijah still have the biblical record on earth to remind them of their sins. But Satan can't use that against them in heaven.

Daryl, you wrote:

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Don't forget about God's foreknowledge in the results of everything including the results of the investigative judgment.
Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

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This text uses "forknowledge" differently from the usual usage. Notice in the last part of the text that the elect are not only already predestined, they are already glorified! Our salvation is more than a time bound promise that we will eventually be with Christ in paradise. In some mystical but very real sence it is an eternal reality. Those who will overcome here (future tense) have been (past tense) glorified.

Interesting thought, Mark.

I think I understand what glorification means in the future at the second coming of Christ when He resurrects/translates His followers, however, what does it mean past tense?