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Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8877
01/01/02 06:56 PM
01/01/02 06:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Greg, you've expressed my sentiments exactly. I searched the word "time" in 7BC and the only thing that came to close to what you mentioned above is the this one:

7BC 934.25 "Let those who are oppressed under a sense of sin remember that there is hope for them. The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant. So surely as there never was a time when God was not, so surely there never was a moment when it was not the delight of the eternal mind to manifest His grace to humanity (ST June 12, 1901).

Were you thinking of something different?


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8878
01/02/02 04:40 AM
01/02/02 04:40 AM
G
Greg Goodchild  Offline
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Placerville, CA
Here is the quote:
"I AM means an eternal presence:the past, present, and future are alike to God! He sees the most remote events of past history, and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily." I BC 1099
Hope that is of some help.

Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8879
01/02/02 10:31 AM
01/02/02 10:31 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
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Scripture presents happenings & prophecy in terms of linear time. It does not show created creatures moving back & forth in time. The context of the last quote.
"eternal presence" = 9 hits.

hit # 214. God Sees Future as We See Present.--I Am means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike to God. He sees the most remote events of past history, and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily. We know not what is before us, and if we did, it would not contribute to our eternal welfare. God gives us an opportunity to exercise faith and trust in the great I Am (MS 5a, 1895). {1BC 1099.5}
****************
hit # 6. Chap. 6 - The Great I Am

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58. {TMK 12.1}

I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike with God. He sees the most remote events of past history and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things which are transpiring daily. We know not what is before us, and if we did, it would not contribute to our eternal welfare. God gives us an opportunity to exercise faith and trust in the great I AM. . . . Our Saviour says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" (John 8:56). Fifteen hundred years before Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and left His position of honor in the heavenly courts, assumed humanity, and walked a man among the children of men, Abraham saw His day, and was glad. "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (verses 57, 58). . . . {TMK 12.2}

Christ was using the great name of God that was given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence {See Ex. 3:14.} Isaiah also saw Christ, and his prophetic words are full of significance. He says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6). Speaking through him, the Lord says, "I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour. . . . Fear not: for I am with thee. . . . I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. . . . Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he. . . . I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King" (Isa, 43:3-15). . . . When Jesus came to our world, He proclaimed Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). . . . {TMK 12.3}

The Lord must be believed and served as the great "I AM," and we must trust implicitly in Him. {TMK 12.4}

****************

hit # 8. Many of our neighbors are living in transgression and rebellion against God. They choose to indulge their carnal impulses rather than to yoke up with Christ, lift the cross, and follow Jesus. There is a cross to lift, and self-denial to practice in all the ways of practical godliness. It is through loving care and helpfulness for others that we learn the precious lessons God designs for us. The great sacrifice of love made by the only begotten Son of God, won the victory on our behalf. When will the people of God become pure and true and Christlike? When will they come out from the world and be separate? When will they open the doors of the heart, and welcome the heavenly Guest? {14MR 20.1}

We cannot overestimate the value of simple faith and unquestioning obedience. It is by following in the path of obedience in simple faith that the character obtains perfection. Adam was required to render strict obedience to God's commandments, and no lower standard is presented to those who desire salvation in 1895. Christ has promised us sufficient power to reach this high standard. He says, "Whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive" [John 14:13-17]. Consider this statement a moment. But why "cannot" the world receive the truth? "Because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him" [verse 17]. The world is leagued against the truth, because it does not desire to obey the truth. Shall I who perceive the truth close my eyes and heart to its saving power because the world chooses darkness rather than light? Shall I bind myself up with the bundles of tares because my neighbors refuse to be bound up with the wheat? {14MR 20.2}

Shall I refuse light, the evidences of truth which lead to obedience, because my relations and friends choose to follow in the paths of disobedience which lead away from God? Shall I close my mind against the knowledge of the truth because my neighbors consent to remain dwarfs? {14MR 21.1}

6:30 a.m. The sun is beginning to penetrate the clouds, and reveal its beams of light. I am thankful for this, and I will praise the Lord for all His goodness. We have a very pleasant household. May Lacy is like a sunbeam all the time. We appreciate her very much, and Willie will be greatly blessed in his union with her. Today I must commence in earnest the work of writing on the life of Christ. I cannot tell what matter has been sent to you, as I was at Dora Creek, but hope that it was all of that character which will prove a blessing to you and your company. We are a long distance apart but we will be thankful that there is a line of communication between us. I am very glad to know that the Lord is your Helper. To Him you may look, and in Him you may trust; and He will be to you a present help in every time of need. {14MR 21.2}

I AM means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike to God. He sees the most remote events of past history and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily. We know not what is before us, and if we did, it would not contribute to our eternal welfare. God gives us an opportunity to exercise faith and trust in the great I am. {14MR 21.3}

The Lord must keep the city except the watchman labor in vain. This wonderful truth was revealed by Christ during His mission on earth. Our Saviour says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad" [John 8:56]. Fifteen hundred years [ON PAGE 204 OF PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS ELLEN WHITE REFERS TO THIS PERIOD AS BEING EIGHTEEN CENTURIES.] before Christ laid off His royal robes, His kingly crown, and left His position of honor in the heavenly courts, assumed humanity, and walked a man among the children of men, Abraham saw His day and was glad. {14MR 22.1}

"Then said the Jews unto Him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at Him" because of that saying [verses 57-59]. Christ was using the great name of God that was given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence. {14MR 22.2}

Isaiah also saw Christ, and his prophetic words were full of significance. He says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" [Isa. 9:6]. {14MR 22.3}

Speaking through him, the Lord says: [Isa. 43:3-13, 15, quoted]. {14MR 22.4}

The Pharisees were horrified at this declaration of Christ's, "Before Abraham was, I AM." They were beside themselves with rage that [He] should express such awful blasphemy, claiming to be the I AM. They would have stoned Him then and there, but the "I am" blinded their eyes that they should not see Him, although He went out of the temple, passing through their very midst. As Jesus passed through the multitude, He saw a man who had been blind from his youth, and healed him. {14MR 22.5}

When Jesus came to our world, He proclaimed Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" [John 14:6]. "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" [John 1:51]. {14MR 23.1}

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. "If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless" [John 14:15-18]. {14MR 23.2}

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [THIS PHRASE WAS ADDED BY ELLEN WHITE.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" [John 14:26]. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you" [John 16:7]. {14MR 23.3}

****************
hit # 9. Elmshaven, Nov. 30, 1902. The subject of speculation regarding God's personality we will not venture to express, except in the language of the Word which represents His personality. There is to be no discussion over this question lest God would give unmistakable revelation of what He is that would extinguish the one who dares venture on the holy ground in his speculative theories, as some ventured to do in opening the ark to see what was in it as its power and how God was manifested. The men were slain for their curiosity science. {18MR 222.1}

Let human beings consider that by all their searching they can never interpret God. When the redeemed shall be pure and clean to come into His presence, they will understand that all that has reference to the eternal God, the unapproachable God, cannot be represented in figures. It is safe to contemplate God, the great and wonderful God, and Jesus Christ, the express image of God. God gave His only begotten Son to our world, that we might through His righteous character behold the character of God. In heaven we shall be in the eternal presence of God. {18MR 222.2}

In this life ever remember, "Thou God seest me." Do nothing you would not like God to see. Speak nothing you would not like God to hear. [Write nothing] you would not like God to read. Your time is precious. Read no books of which you would not like God to say, Show it to me. Spend not your time in any foolish action that would bring condemnation to your soul if you considered, The Lord is looking upon me. [This entry from Journal No. 51, p. 9.]--Ms 223, 1902.

Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. Dec. 17, 1987. Entire Ms. {18MR 222.3}

********************


Philosophy without Scripture becomes a confused tangle. Scripture without SOP becomes for SDA’s, too often, endless Philosophy. How are each assumption or theorm cataloged & qualified by 100% agreement of Scripture & SOP? The topic gets less clear as it progresses instead of clearer.

Please copy & paste a simple list of the statements that are the defining assumptions upon which the theorms are built.


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8880
01/02/02 06:25 PM
01/02/02 06:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If we cannot hope to explain how God can exist from eternity past (to possess life without beginning or end), and if we cannot hope to explain how God can be everywhere at once - then how can we decidedly say that God definitely cannot "inhabiteth eternity" (Isa 57:15)?

I don't think I'm ready to admit on the one hand that God is too vast to completely explain, and then on the other hand emphatically insist that it's impossible for God to occupy eternity.

"I AM means an eternal presence: the past, present, and future are alike to God! He sees the most remote events of past history, and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily." 1 BC 1099

How can we agree that God sees the end from the beginning with 20/20 vision, and yet totally reject the idea that He can inhabit eternity? Who are we to limit God? And then to insinuate that all who dare to take God at His word, i.e., Isa 57:15, are on dangerous ground? I don't get it?


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8881
01/02/02 07:05 PM
01/02/02 07:05 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Are you, therefore, also saying that Christ, or God the Son, also inhabits all of eternity, or is this limited to one or two of them namely God, the Father, and God the Holy Spirit?

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8882
01/04/02 02:44 AM
01/04/02 02:44 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,583
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I found Mike's quotation very reassuring - that the covenant of mercy has always existed from eternity with the human family. Let's try to get our minds around that and consider the implications for 1844.

Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8883
01/04/02 02:57 AM
01/04/02 02:57 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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I may be too bold in differing with two of the greatest theologians of the church, Jones and Waggoner, but my impression is that they became too precise in pinpointing the mechanics of salvation and the nature or personality of God and of Christ. In the same vein, personally, I don't think it's helpful to speculate on which person(s) of the Godhead dwells in eternity. Unless that issues is revealed in scripture, its better left alone.

There is always a fine line in knowing where the scriptures leave off and where speculation begins. I think its better to be like the accounting profession and be conservative in our interpretations, but at the same time, be like the engineers - open to new ideas.


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8884
01/04/02 03:27 AM
01/04/02 03:27 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Except that Sister White clearly says Jesus forever forfieted His ability to be omnipresent when He assumed humanity.

Yeah, I thought that quote about the everlasting covenant of mercy existing from eternity was pretty awesome. Somewhere else it was observed that since blood sacrifices existed hundreds of years before Moses erected the earthly sanctuary this may symbolized how Jesus was slain from the foundation of world, before Jesus ever began His heavenly sanctuary ministry on earth.

What do you think?


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8885
01/04/02 03:41 AM
01/04/02 03:41 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
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Nova Scotia, Canada
I don't believe that omnipresent includes eternity past to eternity future as that would mean that sin would always exist in the presence of a God who's presence spans throughout all eternity.

God may know eternity past and eternity future, however, that doesn't mean that He also exists in the past, present, and the future all at the same time.


Re: Oct. 22, 1844 - More significant than we may think #8886
01/05/02 01:40 AM
01/05/02 01:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Daryl, how can you so confidently say what is and what is not possible for God? Is that what you get out of Is 57:15? If you can't explain how God can be omnipresent, then how can you hope to explain how He cannot possible occupy eternity?

And if sin has a limited history - so far about 6,000 years or so - and that it will come to an end soon, then what makes you say it would occupy eternity future with God? Yes, the scars of Christ will forever remind us that sin once existed, but the memory of those specific sins will have been blotted out in judgment and eliminated in the lake of fire with the Devil and the unsaved.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]


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