Mike, I still haven’t given your question on the Investigative Judgment of the dead a full answer.

Above I agreed with you that the MHP cleansing appears to be related to the Investigative Judgment of the living, but that doesn’t explain where or how the dead are judged. The participation of the dead by faith in the Holiest ministry of Christ is a partial answer but what about those who are outside of that inner circle represented by the atonement of the mercy seat?

In Revelation 6 the souls of the martyred saints are pictured as residing beneath the bronze altar. They cry out to God asking how long it will be before their blood is avenged on the wicked. Like the 144,000, this group is also numbered. In answer to their query they are given white robes (judged and found worthy of eternal life) but told that they must wait until their number is completed.

In the Mosaic model, the bronze altar is not cleansed on the Day of Atonement, but in Ezekiel’s temple it is the second to last item cleansed. If the bronze altar is connected to the Investigative Judgment of the dead, and I believe it is because of the passage in Revelation 6, it seems at first glance from the Mosaic and Ezekiel’s models that the dead are the second to last group to be judged, not the first as we teach.

But in both Ezekiel’s temple and in the Mosaic model, the bronze altar is dedicated, consecrated and purified first. The dedications for the Mosaic model and for Ezekiel’s temple are described in Numbers 7 and in Ezekiel 43:13-27. In both cases the bronze altars are purified before any other corporate or individual atonement is preformed on them.

So, on the Day of Atonement, the sins of the deceased saints have (to use a phrase from Sister White) “gone beforehand to judgment.” Does this make sense?

Mark, I think you lost me that time. I'm sorry. I didn't understand how the dead are actually judged second, and who is judged first? I agree with the idea that God has a set number of martyrs He will allow by the time probation closes, and the number remaining who will be translated alive is precisely 144,000.

But I'm still stuck on the idea that none of us have actually experienced the IVJ of the living. Which also means the righteous dead will never experience drinking the cup of IVJ. See Mark 10:39 and Isa 51:21-23 where the Bible speaks of the living righteous drinking the cup during the time of trouble.

By the way, I'll be away on expedition in Argentina until the first of February. I will resume studying with you folks when I get back.

Mark;
What evidence to you use to conclude that the altar before the Lord (Lev 16:18) is not the bronze altar?

I also did not get the concept of the judging first and second etc. Could you try that again?

Mike, Adventists have always taught that the dead are judged first. Revelation 6:9-11 describes that process, linking it to the bronze altar. But where is the proof in the Mosaic model that the dead are judged first? In the dedication of the bronze altar. It is the first article of the sanctuary to be cleansed in both the Mosaic model and Ezekiels temple.

When Israel was enslaved, there was no sanctuary. But God sent Mosaic to Pharaoh and at their liberation we have as the foundation for the entire system, the Passover lamb. This is the first overarching atonement, the one that commenced the national worship service. Then, in the wilderness the law was given and God said let them make me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them. The tabernacle was built. But before any further corporate worship was performed, the nation under Divine inspiration dedicated the bronze altar. Each of the 12 tribes participated in this solemn event. Numbers 7.

I have my own ideas of why the bronze altar is also atoned for later in Ezekiel’s temple, but for now, if you study the dedicatory services of the altar cited above, that should answer the question of whether the dead are judged first. I agree with the pioneers.

Greg, I’ll get to your question asap. For now, I just have time to post some thoughts I put down yesterday on a related topic:

In the sanctuary system there is an interesting distinction between common things, holy things and most holy things. Let’s leave aside the distinction between the holy and the common. That seems plain enough for the moment.

The question I’d like to discuss is why is there a difference between holy things and most holy things. This difference is present throughout the sanctuary system. Not only is there a Holy Place and a Most Holy Place. There were holy offerings – the peace offerings, thank offerings and votive offerings, and certain other offerings. In contrast, there were most holy offerings – the sin offering, burnt offering and most grain offerings. It seem that there were similar distinctions in the clothing of the high priest in the Mosaic service (but not in Ezekiel’s service). Why?

In 1844, the antitypical Day of Atonement began. If we look at the service on the typical day, the same distinction is prominent. The priest went in to the Holiest, first with the blood of the bull to atone for himself and his family, and then with the blood of the goat to atone for the nation.

To outward appearances it seems that in these two acts the priest atoned for the Most Holy Place only. But interestingly, this is not what inspiration tells us. Instead in Leviticus 16:16 we read that when the priest was done in the Most Holy Place, he had cleansed not only the Holiest, but also the tabernacle of the congregation, or, the Holy Place as well! What is remarkable about that statement in verse 16 is that the priest did not apply the blood anywhere physically to the Holy Place, yet we are told that it was cleansed, nevertheless!

Greg, to answer your question about which altar is before the Lord in Leviticus 16, in the Mosaic model the bronze altar is sanctified or cleansed at its dedication. (See Numbers 7 and Exodus 29.) There is no provision for a subsequent cleansing. But in Exodus 30:10, the Lord specifically required an annual cleansing or atonement on the horns of the golden altar. This is the altar therefore that was cleansed on the Day of Atonement.

7 And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning:
when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. {sweet
incense: Heb. incense of spices}
8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn
incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout
your generations. {lighteth: or setteth up: Heb. causeth to
ascend} {at even: Heb. between the two evenings}
9 Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt
sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink
offering thereon.
10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once
in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once
in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your
generations: it [is] most holy unto the LORD. Exodus 30:7-10

Regarding the cleansing of the bronze altar, Exodus 29 describes the ordination of the Aaronic priesthood, but it is interesting to note that their ordination is combined with a second cleansing of the bronze altar. Above I noted that in Numbers 7 this altar is dedicated first, but here in Exodus 29 there is also a second dedication of the bronze altar, and again it occurred before any regular services commenced. We know that no services had commenced because this second dedication occurred simultaneously with the ordination of the Aaronic priesthood.

36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock [for] a sin
offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when
thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to
sanctify it.
37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and
sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever
toucheth the altar shall be holy. . .
44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and
the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to
minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be
their God.
46 And they shall know that I [am] the LORD their God, that
brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell
among them: I [am] the LORD their God.

So, again the bronze altar is doubly cleansed before any other service commenced. This confirms our position that the dead are judged first. But did you notice above that this altar is, like the inner sanctuary, and like the golden altar, most holy? If you missed it, re-read verse 37.

The question is: why these distinctions between the bronze and golden altars, Why the difference between holy and most holy? Does anyone you have any insights?

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Another interesting point about the service on the Day of Atonement is the rule that no one can be inside the Holy Place when the high priest ministers in the Most Holy. But the rule does not appear to apply when, during the same service, the high priest ministers at the golden altar.

17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the
congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy
[place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for
himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of
Israel.
18 And he shall go out unto the altar that [is] before the
LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood
of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put [it] upon
the horns of the altar round about.
19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger
seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness
of the children of Israel. Lev 16:17-19.

"Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. . . Now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises . . [i.e.] "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: . . . and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

"Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. . . Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. . . . . .

[In other words, the outer tent symbolized the Levitical priesthood which could not purify the conscience. The inner tent symbolized the priesthood of Christ.]

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year. For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

"[Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 8 - 10.

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

In my late teens a good college friend pointed out to me the passages in Hebrews 8 to 10 above that show that Christ appeared to enter the Most Holy Place to atone for the church prior to 1844. That troubled me because I firmly believed that 1844 was the ending point of the 2300 days. This was at the time when Desmond Ford was advocating the idea that 1844 was simply an honest mistake. I never accepted that position because it obviously meant a repudiation of Ellen White’s prophetic gift. Another reason I had to reject the Ford position was that his explanations had more inconsistencies than the church’s position. So for the next several years, I pondered and studied and wondered.

Some of the results of my study are what I am sharing with you now. My conclusion is that 1844 is, in fact, the end of the 2300 days, that Christ began his ministry at that time, but that the early church appropriated his Most Holy Place ministry for themselves. If you look at the passage from Hebrews in the post above, no where does the writer say that Jesus was in the Most Holy Place prior to 1844. But it repeatedly states that the early church was invited into the Holiest. Inspiration left it to us to put the pieces together with Daniel 8:14 and draw our own conclusions. Notice this text cited above:

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” Hebrews 10:19

This text is probably the clearest text in Hebrews showing that the early church appropriated the future Most Holy ministry of Christ. That this ministry transcends time is also a major topic with the writer. Here are some passages, again taken from the same three chapters:

quote:

---

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

---

Daryl, recently you posted a quote on another thread from Sister White where she states that she was specifically shown that new light is really old light revived. Nowhere is that more applicable than to the sanctuary doctrine. As we advance in the light emanating from the sanctuary, we are identifying more closely with the original message of the apostles. Let’s remember that it is these divinely appointed men and their teaching on which the foundations of the church, nay, the foundations of the New Jerusalem are laid, Christ being the chief corner stone.

To me, that is not good news, it is great news! It means we can completely identify with the teaching of the apostles on how they and the early church appropriated the Most Holy ministry of Christ. Look again at what Christ can do to cleanse the inner sanctuary of our consciences!

quote:

---

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

---

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mike, I understand you're on vacation in South America now, but when you get back next month, you'll likely pick up on the idea above that the inner sanctuary is a symbol of the conscience. Not that you agree. But you've been advocating a similar idea - the idea that our memories will at some future point be cleansed. And we know that will eventually happen. You may even be right about the timing.

But I want look at the idea here that through the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ not only our memories, but our very consciences can be purged, cleansed, made new. The way I read Hebrews is that God can do that for us now. Does anyone have any thought on how, (or if) the sanctuary illustrates that?

By the way Mike, thanks for sharing your experience about victory over impatience in your Moral Perfection thread. I can identify with that.

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]