If I am reading you correctly, if God the Father and God the Holy Spirit lives in the time of the crucifixion of God the Son, then they will always be suffering the separation of the Son.

Certainly, all things with God are possible, except for those things they choose not to do, one of which is not to tamper with the freewill of the created beings, and the other of which is not to be eternally in the presence of sinful activity, otherwise, how can sin be truly done away with, if God is spanning eternity of which 6,000 plus years were full of sinful activity?

That would be like forever experiencing the suffering of having a black eye.

Regarding the eternal existence of God, Providence gives this concept primacy throughout scripture. Being finite we can’t understand the details, but we can learn from the fact that when God commissioned Moses at the burning bush to deliver Israel, Moses was told to tell the enslaved Hebrews that “I AM” sent him. It is significant that on the eve of one of the earliest and greatest events of sacred history, God chose to identify himself with this name. It is apparently one of His most important characteristics.

Who is this “I AM”? At a minimum, it is Christ. No doubt it likely includes the Father and the Spirit as well. The name “I AM” was repeated to the Jews through Christ at his first advent. He again identified himself in the same way: “Before Abraham was, I AM”.

The self-imposed limitation that Christ gladly took on himself in taking human nature has not limited his eternal nature. Christ is still the “I AM”, and he still dwells in eternity.

The context that surround the “I AM” reference in Isaiah 57 is instructive:

“ I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee. . . . but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain; And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumbling block out of the way of my people. For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. . . . I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him. Isaiah 57:13-19.

Notice just some of the concepts that are linked together above:

1) Our own righteousness will not profit us.
2) Those who trust in God and His righteousness will inherit Zion - the holy mountain.
3)They will also become witnesses and repairers of the breach.
4)The One who inhabits eternity is the same one who dwells in the Most Holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, and His purpose in dwelling there is to revive the spirit of the humble and the hearts of the contrite ones.

Is it stretching it too far to say the providence here links the divine throne room, the Most Holy Place to the Eternal, the “I AM”? Not at all. This is a consistent theme of scripture. This ministry began in 1844, but it is the ministry of the Eternal, it embraces eternity, and it has been appropriated by the saints of all ages.

When Christ answered the Sadducees on the question of the resurrection he told them “Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? . . . As touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.” Mark 12:24-27.

In the same way that the Sadducees erred regarding the dead, hasn’t Adventism also greatly erred in teaching that our patriarchs - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - and indeed the saints of all ages are not spiritually regenerated and vivified through the eternal Most Holy ministry of Christ?

Christ, our high priest, is also the I AM. His holiest ministry embraces all. By divine oath he was installed a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek, and he ever lives to make intercession for us. Here is where the 1888 message comes in. To my mind the bigger question is whether we will avail ourselves of that ministry and learn how to appropriate his blood for ourselves. Have a look at what Adventbeliever has posted recently under the 1888 thread.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Daryl, to suggest that God cannot possibly inhabit eternity past, present and future because He would be forever stuck in sin ignores the basic essence of God. Is God selective? Does He inhabit eternity concerning the pleasant things, but not the terrible things? Will He blot out of His mind the life, death and resurrection of Jesus? Will behold the scars of Christ and forget why they exist?

Daryl, so far you haven't shared your private interpretation of Is 57:15. For the sake of this discussion would you please take some time to comment on this passage? Mark Shipowick shared some good insights that deserve some attention.

If 1844 embraces all of the redeemed, then what else does the typical Day of Atonement teach us about salvation history? Under the Unfulfilled Fall Feasts thread, I make a comment that this day also teaches a staged cleansing - that is that the atonement progresses from one sub-group, of the redeemed to the next.

We have some support for this in the SOP. We've always known as a church that there are at least two groups that are atoned for separately; the dead first and then the living. Of course when the living are being judged, the dead must still be judged because some of the living will die during the judgment of the living.

One of the things we should be looking at therefore is where do we stand now in the judgment process. Are we with Christ behind the veil while he applies the blood to the mercy seat? Are we with him while he applies it seven times in front of the mercy seat? or Are we with him while he applies it to the golden altar, the bronze altar or the inner court? (Ezekiel 45:19-20).

Paul urged the New Testament church to come boldly to the mercy seat - the throne of grace. Christ offers the same invitation. But it appears that not all of even the redeemed respond as fully as others.

In the GC she points out that the investigative judgment is sequential, beginning with the first to die and concluding with the last to die, and somewhere along the line involving the living before probation closes.

Although Jesus began work in the MHP starting in 1844, and by faith God's people followed Him there, in reality our experience is associated with the HP. Not until our names come up for review does our experience reflect the MHP.

Sanctification is the HP experience, it is where we grow and develop Christlike traits of character. But the MHP is where glorification happens, first to our minds, and when Jesus returns to our bodies.

Personally, from what I've studied about the MHP, no one living today has undergone the MHP experience - that is, the investigative judgment of the living. During this time Jesus will blot out our record and memory of specifics sins, number and seal us among the 144,000, empower us to preach the 3AM's with latter rain efectiveness, and to be translated alive when Jesus returns.

No one can undergo this experience until they first demonstrate their allegiance to God by manfully resisting the MOB crisis. That is, God cannot number and seal someone before they prove their committment to heaven by refusing to receive the MOB.

Yes, we must even now display dedication by overcoming sin, living without known defects of character, blotting out sin from our character. But this is not what happens in the MHP, it must happen before our name comes up in judgment, otherwise we will be blotted out of the book of life. We blot out character imperfections in the outer court, and mature in the fruit of the Spirit in the HP, but in the MHP our record and memory of specific sins will be forever blotted out of the halls of remembrance, borne away to land of forgetfulness.

What do you think?

Mike, I thought that one of our 27 fundamental beliefs is that the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ has been available to us since 1844. Since this is an SDA forum I don’t want to persuade you on the question of whether the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ is available to us today (leaving aside for the moment the issue of whether those who lived before 1844 could appropriate it). For me and for most SDAs that is a given, and if it is not a given, it should be studied until it is. I’d like to focus here on the eternal priesthood of Christ.

Christ is in the Most Holy Place today in your behalf and mine. So again I want to ask, as our eternal priest, what is He doing on the mercy seat, before the mercy seat, and at the golden altar. These aren’t fine and pointless distinctions. In Revelation there are repeated references to the golden altar, to incense offered on it, to voices that sound from it, and to its ultimate cleansing.

I think there is insight to be gained by looking at the temple from the approach perspective - outer court, bronze altar, Holy and Most Holy. But I think we can learn as much and more from the sequesnce of cleansing on the Mosaic Day of Atonement and from the atonement of Ezekiel's temple.

Also, the ordination services in both temples should be closely studied because a major goal of the plan of salvation is to ordain a nation of priest-kings. According to Revelation 5, that will take place at the end - I believe under the dispensation of the latter rain.

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mike,

If you are speaking of God inhabiting eternity in His mind, then I am in agreement with you, however, if you are saying that God actually inhabits all eternity in the same way that we inhabit the present, then I am not in agreement with you unless you can prove that to me from the Scriptures and/or at least from the SOP.

Now after saying what I said, I read the reference that Mike gave me:

quote:

---

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

---

Interesting text.

Now to see what the text is saying.

According to the SDA Bible Commentary, the words inhabiteth eternity literally means dwells forever.

That makes sense to me.

So far I inhabit almost 53 years. Unless Christ returns and I am translated, my earthly life will come to an end. Even then, my life had a beginning. God never had a beginning. My life wasn't and will never be eternal in both directions. It may be in the future direction, however, unlike God, my life had a beginning.

On the other hand, God's life is eternal in both directions. In that sense God inhabits eternity in the same way I inhabit my lifetime.

This really is getting away from the title of this topic, therefore, if this to be discussed any further, it will need to be done as a separate topic from this one.

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Daryl, it really isn't my goal to persuade you of anything. If you're unwilling to allow that God can physically inhabit eternity like you and I inhabit the here and now, then more power to you. Personally I'm unwilling to make that conclusion. By the way, can you also explain how God can be every where at once? You did a pretty good job of explaining how He can't occupy eternity.

Mark, in what way are we presently participating in the investigative judgment of the dead? In what way could people who lived before 1844 participate in the IVJ of the dead?

Daryl: I agree that we’ve gotten off-track somewhat. But that’s not all bad. I’ll be thinking about your perspective on the ‘I AM’ issue. Thanks for sharing that.

Leaving that issue aside, I’m wondering if you’d be willing to comment on the main idea of the thread – that the saints before 1844 appropriated the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ. It’s by faith that you and I do that today. Couldn’t our spiritual forefathers do it by faith too?

Mike, you have a valid point about the sequencing issue. That very issue had caused me to wonder why the pioneers of Adventism insist that the IJ starts with the dead. I agree with you that the ancient sanctuary models – Mosaic and Ezekiel’s – both seem to indicate that the judgment of the living takes place within the Most Holy Place.

That troubled me until I discovered that this is the key, the logical conclusion, of Adventist doctrine – that for anyone who understands the sanctuary doctrine (whether it is modern SDA’s or the patriarchs or anyone in between,) they are in the Judgment of the Living. As you point out, the Judgment of the Living takes place at the very end, but if we know the truth about it and what the blood of Christ can do for us, we can appropriate the benefits of it today. The Judgment of the Living is the individual’s and the church’s response to the message of “the Lord our Righteousness”. We are judged by how respond to this eternal, essential truth.

That explains why on the Day of Atonement, the first thing that is cleansed is the mercy seat. Those who in every age have appropriated the merits of the blood of Christ most fully are the ones closest to God, at His very mercy seat. These are the first fruits of the harvest, and they are atoned for first.

This is why the 144,000 are the first fruits. If the 144,000 were only made up of saints who live at the end of time, regardless of their characters, they would be last fruits; the last to be save, and the last to be taken to heaven, for the dead in Christ rise first. But regardless of when they lived, the 144,000 appropriated this final ministry of Christ, and they fully reflect His merciful and just character. And therefore, they are atoned for first. They are pictured for us in the Mosaic service as standing before God at the mercy seat where mercy and truth, righteousness and peace meet together.

32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to
tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of]
Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness,
obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the
sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight,
turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others
were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain
a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings,
yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were
slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and
goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in
deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the
earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:32-40.

When will these saints be made perfect? When their number is complete. Ellen White tells us that when the character of Christ is fully reproduced in his people, He will come to claim them as his own. Aren’t we living now in the time depicted in Revelation 7 when the King is making up his jewels? Aren’t we in the time when the tribes of Israel are being numbered, 12,000 to a tribe? And doesn’t that numbering process reach back to Adam?

If Adam is to be reinstated as the head of the human race, (and Sister White says he will be) in order for him to have executive authority with the 144,000 he should not only be one of their number, he should be the leader of that number.

This point regarding Adam is far from essential doctrine, but let me continue briefly. The 144,000 form the core of the central government of the New Earth, indeed they form the core of the universal government of God. They take the places of the fallen ruling angels. The scriptures picture them as ruling with Christ, the son of David, from Zion, the city of David. Hebrews 12, Revelation 14. The law goes forth from Zion, not only in this life, but in the New Earth. In fact, the 144,000 are so highly exalted that in the new earth, God moves the seat of government from the New Jerusalem to Mount Zion which is a short distance to the north outside of the city. See Early Writings, and Revelation 20 and 21. The latter reference tells us that there is no temple in the city. Why? Because the temple is at Mount Zion, to the north of the city, the location of the 144,000. Revelation 14. And Adam is at their head.

Having said that, what I have shared regarding the 144,000 is my opinion, and I don’t want anyone to miss the main point, which is, that for all of the reasons posted above, 1844 means everything to the saints of all ages.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]