I have just finished reading this thread and I must say that I was very impressed, not only with the quality of the thoughts expressed but also with the spirit and tone of the posters. I was very refreshed. What an awesome God our God is!

There is so much of what Mike has said that I tend to agree with. Mark made good points too but I seriously question some of his thoughts regarding 1844, especially concerning the investigative judgment of the living. I would have liked to have participated in this discussion earlier but I was only made aware of it tonite. I am not saying that my contribution would have in any way helped solve some of the most puzzling questions that were raised, but at least I would have had the privilege of interacting with some of the finest minds on this forum! (Its still not too late)

What do you make of this statement:

"Above, beneath, beyond, abides Infinite love, working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness." Education, p.134.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Thanks for joining us AB, and a hearty welcome to you. I'd really like to hear you're comments. Tell me your thoughts on the judgement of the living.

In a nutshell, I think that as we can participate today in the latter rain of the Holy Spirit (the gifts are irrevokable according to scripture), in the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ, in His New Covanenet ministry, and also in the judgment of the living; that they are all different aspects of the same thing - the atonement; being settled into the truth.

I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on the main point - that the saints before 1844 appropriated the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ.

Mark

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

AB, thank you for your kind words, and thank you for joining this thread. It's a pleasure.

I really liked the way you compared the two aspects of justification and the seals and how it relates to the two aspects of the blotting out of sin. Well said.

And that ED 134 quote beautifully describes the ubiquitous nature of our loving God. I'm so glad His goodness permeates to the depth of my soul.

Mark, your thought that people of the past (before 1844) were able to experience the MHP ministry of Jesus is still somewhat puzzling to me. By faith we may participate in the glories of heaven, but be that as it may it pales in comparison to really being there in person.

A little correction here: Thanks to both of you for your warm welcome! Sorry Mark, I did not realize you had posted until now. I appreciate the word "ubiquitous," the state or capacity of being everywhere especially at the same time! God inhabits eternity! It was E.G. Waggoner who represented eternity with a circle and God being present at every point of the circle. "The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible." Education, p.132. The past, present, and future are all alike to Him. "From everlasting to everlasting Thou art God." Ps.90:2. Who can fathom His greatness?

As far as the judgment of the living is concerned, Sister White has already made some very clear statements within the framework of the parables of the net and of the wedding garment. She clearly places it at the end of the loud cry message. She says, "The casting of the net is the preaching of the gospel. This gathers both good and evil into the church (loud cry church). When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation." C.O.L.122.

Then on page 123, she reiterates it: "When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed." These two statements make it so clear as to when the judgment of the living will take place that it is a mystery as to why there should be so much speculation as to the timing of it. She does not tell us the day or the hour but she does tell us about the timing as far as the order of last day events is concerned. What do you think? After the third call of the parable of the Wedding Garment, the King comes into the room to examine the guests. This takes place at the end of the loud cry: "By the King's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment." Ibid, p.310.1

When she says that the judgment will accomplish the work of separation, when the mission of the gospel is completed, does not this show that the wheat and the tares will grow together in the loud cry church and only at the end of the loud cry, at the time of the great final test, will the judgment of the living take place, which will separate the wheat from the tares, when Jesus will pronounce His irrevocable sentence, "Let him that is unholy be unholy still and let him that is holy be holy still." Rev.22:11.

There is no other judgment to take place at that time except the judgment of the living! right? So it is something that no one has yet experienced. Mark, how could the people living before 1844 have experienced the blessings of the final atonement when they did not even have a clue that there was to be such a thing? (it may be that I am not grasping what you are talking about) It was only after on the morrow of the 22nd of October 1844 that the people of God discovered that there was a sanctuary in Heaven and that there was to be a cleansing involving an investigative judgment, first of the dead and then of the living.

We have been living in the time of the latter rain since 1888. So Mark, I agree with you that individually, we may partake of the Holy Spirit in latter rain power as we study the heaven-sent message and receive it by faith.

"We are living in the great Day of Atonement, and it is now time that everyone should repent before God, confess his sins, and by living faith rest upon the merit of a crucified and risen Savior." T.M.224,225.

I also believe that chapter 9 of Daniel applies to us. It is an individual work. Sister White said that we are not to wait for the church to repent, that time will never come. We are to follow the exemple of Daniel who identified himself with sinful and apostate Israel and who pleaded with God for forgiveness and restoration.
Daniel 9:4-19.

You will notice that God answered His prayer but Israel did not repent. The apostasy waxed stronger and increased until they crucified Jesus and forced His followers out of Jerusalem and pursued them relentlessly from city to city!

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

AB, I agree with your logic and your use of EGW statements concerning the timing of the INJ of the living. To add to your thoughts I also think it is important to realize that since Jesus will be numbering and sealing the 144,000 during the INJ of living, and that these individuals will be translated alive without tasting death when Jesus returns, it is obvious that they will have already passed the final test of loyalty by refusing to receive the MOB.

Since the MOB is still a future event, and since nobody has had to demonstrate their allegiance to God by refusing the MOB, it stands to reason that the INJ of the living is also yet future as of today. God cannot number and seal someone before they have proven their allegiance during the MOB crisis.

Does that make sense?

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

AB I'm still thinking about your point that there are two blotting outs, two seals and two judgments. Perhaps there are also two judgments of the living.

AB, I've reread page 3, and I still don't see where you've addressed the main point - unless I missed it. If you have can you restate it - in bold!

I wish Charlene would join us here too. I'd like to get her input.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Thank you for your invitation. I will need to read this whole thread and i have not the time now...it is sleepy-bye time for me. I will put some time on it soon and do some posting.

I have much to learn about this subject.

I can see by reading this whole thread it is going to be very difficult to play “catch-up”. I have a very basic, simple belief in the sanctuary service doctrine. I have not gone into all the tiny aspects of the service, knowing that every detail points to Jesus and His complete sacrifice and work on our behalf to bring us into His eternal glory.

Yes, I see that Jesus sacrifice was from the “foundation of the world”, for it was known beforehand that Lucifer would rebel and a way of escape was provided. Down through the ages, all the souls of mankind meet in the sanctuary. Probation closed on those that lived before the flood and were destroyed by its waters, Sodom and Gomorrah filled their cup of iniquity and her people were destroyed but they all suffered the first death not the second. This is true of the nations that were destroyed by Israel, on down through history to this present day.

I do think that the sins of those in heaven [Enoch, Moses and those of the special resurrection] are still on the books, but covered by the Blood of the Lamb.

The reason: The full light of truth was not given to the faithful people of God’s church until the message of the “last days”. Through the ages, Martyrs died for their faith and the beliefs that they held so dear, they were willing to die for the faith they had in God and the truth He had revealed to them….that can not and should not be minimized.

I see the sins of the people of those gone before us are not blotted out but are covered, they are not placed on the scapegoat until Satan is led into the wilderness to die. The quotes that are here on page one of the “blotting out of sins” ..is a promise that is conditional upon the lives of each saint or sinner. Those that have been translated or resurrected still depend of the final victory of the end-time saints to vindicate His character to prove Satan did indeed lie with his accusations against the God of heaven and His Son Jesus Christ. God does know the beginning and the end of each life, He was looking down through the ages to the Ultimate Victory of His people and knew it was safe to take these Saints to heaven…but “they without us should not be made perfect”, Heb 11:40

Some truths that have been given to God’s people after the 1844 movement began, was not even available to the early church…much truth was buried in the sealed pages of Daniel and not opened till God’s time for it to be known by His Remnant. The tests for our day will be of a different nature and a broader spectrum than those of our forefathers. That is why the 144,000 have special privileges in heaven…”these are they that came out of Great Tribulation”.

The blotting out of sin from the book of records…..takes place during the time of refreshing, The Loud cry.…Act 3:19

Act 3:19 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” This is a promise………..to be fulfilled to the faithful of old it meant total cleansing [by faith] but as of the faith in the coming Messiah…..this was to be in the future, during the refreshing written in the NT.

Does any of this make sense to you….I pray I am open enough to consider what has been written by all of you. So far I am only on page one.

Charlene, Thanks for joining us!
I read your post quickly, and I will reread it and study it later.

For now, just two priliminay questions. 1) Didn't the saints of all ages who lived closest to God have a vivid understanding of the High Priestly work of Christ. Abraham, for example, 'rejoiced to see [Christ's] day' - meaning he probably saw the life, death, ressurection and Most Holy ministry of Christ. I think Christ has always been keen to reveal his glorious ministy to the saints that are able to take it in. 2)If that is true, it would mean that membership in the 144,000 has always been available to the saints. Perhaps there will be a special resurrection just prior to the second advent of the dead 144,000. After all, they are the 'first fruits.'

Who can be tested more closely than Abraham? Isn't God able to reveal himself and to try the saints regardless of when they lived?