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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: asygo]
#89345
05/30/07 11:16 AM
05/30/07 11:16 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Yes, the question is: does the newborn baby need a Savior or not? The Exodus story shows us that it does, for both the newborn baby and the 20-year-old son needed the blood to protect them. If the newborn baby needs a Savior, why is that so? a) Because he is "sinning after Adam’s example" (Pelagian view)? b) Because he "sinned in Adam, his natural head" (Augustinian view)? Or c) because he is "consenting to his irborn sinfulness by acts of transgression" (Arminian view)? Although I consider this a very complicate subject and hesitate in making positive statements, I don't see how a) or c) can be possible.
Ellen White says (again in the famous Baker letter):
"These dear children received from Adam an inheritance of disobedience, of guilt and death." {13MR 14.1}
So, I see two possible alternatives - either the newborn baby inherited guilt from Adam because of Adam's sinful act or because of Adam´s sinful nature - IOW, the propensity to disobedience. I'm inclined to accept the second alternative.
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: asygo]
#89347
05/30/07 12:36 PM
05/30/07 12:36 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Arnold, I believe children are guilty of sinning ignorantly. Again, "all have sinned". God deals with sins of ignorance through the shed blood of Jesus. Grace accommodates sins of ignorance. I'm not sure which label best fits these insight, but it is what I believe. Also, I don't see how we can set salvation aside and talk about the eternal destiny of children who die before they are accountable.
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: Mountain Man]
#89349
05/30/07 02:09 PM
05/30/07 02:09 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Arnold, I believe children are guilty of sinning ignorantly. A newborn baby? How?
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: Rosangela]
#89391
05/31/07 09:20 PM
05/31/07 09:20 PM
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At what point does a newborn baby actually sin?
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: Daryl]
#89393
05/31/07 09:31 PM
05/31/07 09:31 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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At what point does a newborn baby actually sin? It depends on one's definition of sin. If sin requires volition, or the willful disregard of a known command, then newborns cannot sin. At least, the normal ones can't, until they learn God's laws.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: asygo]
#89394
06/01/07 12:16 AM
06/01/07 12:16 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Why make it so complicated? What is the difference between Jesus when He was born and any other baby? The story of the child Jesus shows us clearly that He was different, He spoke of His Father. It seems evident that Jesus was born with a connection to His Father, something no other child since the fall has from birth.
Read Scripture, Ellen White. What is sin? Jesus makes it clear it is lack of faith. No connection with the source of immortality.
We make quite an issue of justification and righteousness by faith and not by works. (I know we cannot eliminate works, and so we cannot eliminate the works of sin.) Salvation is by faith. Sin is by lack of faith, and the works of sin follow.
Would anyone commit a grave sin, murder, theft, etc., while in direct communion with God? Sinful acts are the result of sin - and sin itself is lack of communication, lack of faith in God. The acts are the fruit or results of sin, while sin itself is that we do not believe in Him, and therefore we have lost our access to Him.
So Jesus had to taste sin. It happened when he called out, Eli. eli, lama sabactani: Why have you forsaken me? Sin is being forsaken by God. Jesus could not die while He had His connection with His Father, the source of immortality. His Father had to let Him go so that he could taste, but hanging on the Cross and dying at the same time kept Him away from the grips of Satan, and therefore He bore the consequence of our sin. I do not understand it fully, but I must accept this in faith, the faith that saves.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: Johann]
#89396
06/01/07 01:06 AM
06/01/07 01:06 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Why make it so complicated? What is the difference between Jesus when He was born and any other baby? The story of the child Jesus shows us clearly that He was different, He spoke of His Father. It seems evident that Jesus was born with a connection to His Father, something no other child since the fall has from birth. How about this? John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his birth. If we will live in communion with God, we too may expect the divine Spirit to mold our little ones, even from their earliest moments. {DA 512.3} Doesn't that mean that John had a connection to God from birth? Not only John, but all babies can have the same privilege.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: asygo]
#89398
06/01/07 02:36 AM
06/01/07 02:36 AM
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Regular Member
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
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If babys are not born with the propensity sin then maybe some of you can remember your first sin? Personnaly I can not. I figure I have been sinning from the womb. How about our children? Im still waiting for one to come out selfless. When my son was 2 we told the doctor during one visit that we were worried because Cole just would not share his toys with anyone. The doctor looked at me very matter of factly and said "well yeah, babies don't share until they are 3."
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: asygo]
#89400
06/01/07 07:25 AM
06/01/07 07:25 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Why make it so complicated? What is the difference between Jesus when He was born and any other baby? The story of the child Jesus shows us clearly that He was different, He spoke of His Father. It seems evident that Jesus was born with a connection to His Father, something no other child since the fall has from birth. How about this? John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his birth. If we will live in communion with God, we too may expect the divine Spirit to mold our little ones, even from their earliest moments. {DA 512.3} Doesn't that mean that John had a connection to God from birth? Not only John, but all babies can have the same privilege. I understand your question. John the Baptist was surrounded with a secial blessing from birth, but we must understand that statement in the light of the Biblical fact that there is none sinless except Christ. Even if John was "filled" with the Holy Spirit, Jesus must have had a closer connection than John in order to be snless.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Adventist Thought
[Re: Aaron]
#89410
06/01/07 12:13 PM
06/01/07 12:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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How about our children? Im still waiting for one to come out selfless. Yes, that's the problem. The newborn baby does not commit sinful acts (at least not until he is some months old), but he has a selfish nature (which disconnects him from God). This, in my opinion, is what Ellen White is referring to when she speaks about the inheritance of guilt children receive from Adam. And this is why newborn babies need a Savior. "Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}
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