I do not want to digress from the subject at hand but I simply want to bring your attention to something often overlooked or unthought of in that statement Charlene just quoted:

Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we should be delivered out of it by the voice of God.
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Delivered by the voice of God! Only those who know the power of that voice today will be delivered by it then!

"The word of the living God is not merely written but spoken. The Bible is THE VOICE OF GOD speaking to us, just as surely as we could hear it with our ears. If we realized this, with what awe would we open God's word, and with what earnestness would we search its precepts." Testimonies, Vol.6,393.

"Why do I believe the Bible?--Because I have found it to be THE VOICE OF GOD to my soul." S.C.112.

Speaking of the "good-ground" hearer, Sister White writes: "Only he who receives the Scriptures as THE VOICE OF GOD speaking to himself is a true learner." C.O.L.59.

"All whom God is leading will manifest a high regard for the Scriptures in which HIS VOICE is heard." B.C. Vol.5, p.1147.

"Keep THE VOICE OF THE BIBLE ever before the people." Evang.296.

"Read the Bible, and regard it as THE VOICE OF GOD speaking directly to you." 7 T 205.

"Have you been seeking to study the sacred oracles in order that you may hear THE VOICE OF GOD speaking to you out of His word?" Messages to Young People, p.276.

"The word of the living God is not merely written, but SPOKEN!" 6 T 393; M.H.122.

"That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is THE VOICE OF GOD speaking to the soul in promise." 1 B.C.1105.

To receive the words and commands of the Scriptures as the voice of God to our soul means that "Christ will reveal the creative energy of His word through us." M.B.129.

"The creative energy that called the worlds into existence is in the word of God. That word imparts power, it begets life. Accepted by the will and received into the soul, it brings with it the life of the Infinite One. And the life which is thus received is in like manner sustained by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (the voice of God)." Ed.126.

"In every command and in every promise of the word of God is the power, the very life of God by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized." C.O.L.38.

In 1888, Jones and Waggoner preached this very message. Sister White said:

"We have been hearing His voice more distinctly in the message that has been going in the last two years." Review and Herald, March 11,1890.

This is what I have been trying to emphasize in the thread entitled I Believe Your Commandments in this forum and in Linda's thread on Evolution in SDA Church Issues.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Charlene, thanks so much for your input. I am studying it, and especially the posts of Sister White's visions.

A very good summary by Charlene:

quote:

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The most Holy place is the innermost heart and the second apartment. The cleansing needs to be the heart. Fitness for the kingdom above. Christ is now sprinkling the blood for those whose lives totaly depend on Him. His Merits must be applied to me for me to be able to stand before a Holy God when the last trump shall sound. Those that have rejected the teaching that we must by faith move into the Most Holy place have rejected the cleansing power of God.

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Charlene and forum,

I don't want to begin debating the identity of the 144,000, but I thought it would be helpful in some of my previous posts to state an alternate view of who this group is. I think that most of the church that believes the historic doctrines, holds the view that the 144,000 are those that live and overcome at the end of time. Sister White however has warned us not to draw conclusions.

So, I won't be advocating my view further. But I may at times challenge the established view, because, like I've said, it seems to me that we've been warned not to have an established view.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Not to distract from the topic but seems to me that her warnings about the 144,000 have to do with trying to name those who will be a part of the list, and not that she's saying we cannot know when the group will be formed.

Now we're really off topic, but Daryl, sometimes thats a good thing. Here is the 144,000 statement, Mike, that most of us have heard from Sister White:

quote:

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Christ says that there will be those in the church who will present fables and suppositions, when God has given grand, elevating, ennobling truths, which should ever be kept in the treasure house of the mind. When men pick up this theory and that theory, when they are curious to know something it is not necessary for them to know, God is not leading them. It is not His plan that His people shall present something which they have to suppose, which is not taught in the Word. It is not His will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, Who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand. This those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.

My brethren and sisters, appreciate and study the truths God has given for you and your children. Spend not your time in seeking to know that which will be no spiritual help. "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" This is the all-important question, and it has been clearly answered. "What is written in the law? how readest thou? (MS 26, 1901).

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I found another SOP quote last night on both the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary and on the identity of the 144,000. The quote confirms Charlene's statement that the innermost sanctuary is the human heart, and it confirms that the significance of the 144,000 is that this group has cooperated fully in the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ.

The quote also could be taken to support the established view of who comprises the 144,000, but if you look at it carefully, especially the bolded parts, it leaves the door open for a broader interpretation.

quote:

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As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments," and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." Zechariah 3:4. The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. A "fair miter" is set upon their heads.

While Satan has been urging his accusations, holy angels, unseen, have been passing to and fro, placing upon the faithful ones the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand which were redeemed from the earth. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14:4, 5. Prophets and Kings p. 591.1,2.

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This quote also helps to explain why the last item cleansed on the Day of Atonement is the golden altar of incense. Above Sister White states that the saints who resist the mark of the beast in the face of death will be pleading earnestly with God. Their prayers go up from the golden altar as sweet incense before God and as they in faith claim the righteousness of Christ as their own. ". . .the spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world." Prophets and Kings p. 591.1. This is the final atoning act in both the typical Mosaic model and the actual service. The cleansing of the 144,000 is associated with (or symbolized by) their prayers at the golden altar.

(In Ezekiel's model we have some additional information that appears on the surface to contradict this. I hope some of you will study it and post the results. Here is the passage:

"Thus saith the Lord God; In the first [month], in the first [day] of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put [it] upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh [day] of the month for every one that erreth, and for [him that is] simple: so shall ye reconcile the house." Ezekiel 45:18-20.

Notice in this cleansing that the last items to be cleansed are the bronze altar and the inner court. The temple is cleansed first.)

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

I plan to post some more on this topic. I see I was quite wordy in some of my posts. I'll try to limit it in the future. In the mean time, any other thoughts?

I noticed in reading Vol 5 of the Daniel and Revelation Committee's 'Doctrine of the Sanctuary - An Historical Survey' that the understanding of the pioneers of the scope of the High Priestly ministry of Christ in the Most Holy Place expanded dramatically between 1844 and 1863. So, my ideas of enlarging the scope of the MHP ministry at the beginning of the thread are not precedent-setting.

As a result of the challenges to the Sanctuary doctrine by Desmond Ford, the Adventist church published a five volume set through a new committee – the Daniel and Revelation Committee – during the 1980’s. One of the things that they wisely decided to do was to provide an historical review of the development of the sanctuary doctrine by the pioneers since much of what the pioneers came to believe was the result of answering challenges from non-Sabbath-observing Adventists. That review is in volume five which I’ve been reading recently.

One of the main arguments that the pioneers needed to meet was the same argument of Ford – that scripture, especially Hebrews 6 to 10, supports the idea that Christ entered the Holiest at His ascension rather than in 1844. Vol. 5 indicates they responded by saying that the Greek talks of ‘holy places’ in the plural rather than the singular. Since ‘places’ is referred to they concluded that the passages implied a Holy Place ministry at the ascension.

Let’s look at that briefly. If the Greek is plural, wouldn’t it be telling us that the ministry of Christ at His ascension was also plural, encompassing both the Holy and Most Holy Places? Again, like I’ve said at the beginning of the thread, I believe He did enter for the first time into the Holiest in 1844, but like His death which those living before Him could appropriate by faith, His Holiest ministry was also available before the event.

O.R.L. Crosier and J.N. Andrews were two of the prominent pioneers to make the plural/singular argument. It has the weakness that I pointed out above and in addition, the plural Greek can be correctly translated singular in this case because the Greek scholars tell us that in Greek there is a 'plural of excellence' that is sometimes applied to singular objects. Both translations could be correct. The context is used by translators to tell which is intended.

But the pioneers were also quite unanimous that the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ did apply to all mankind. They took the view that the Holiest ministry of Christ applied to the saints under both the old covenant and the new. (See page 85 and 86 of Vol 5 of 'The Doctrine of the Sanctuary). They stopped short of my position but it seems this was an oversight. Logically, if the ministry of Christ in the Holiest applied to those who lived before 1844, they must have looked to His future ministry by faith. Isn't faith essential to recieve the benefit of Christ's ministry in both Holy Places?