Mark, did anyone think to ask what began to happen in 1844 that hadn't already been happening since Adam fell?

Yes, it was discussed. It's the main topic of the thread.

Okay. Thank you. A few posts back you wrote, ". . . the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ which began in 1844 has always been available to the church back to the fall of Adam . . ." (emphasis mine)

If Jesus' ministry in the MHP began in 1844, how, then, could it have been available to people beforehand dating all the way back to Adam?

Now, both 'apartment' ministries are combined since 1844, but the final ministry of atoning for us by blotting out the records of our confessed & forgiven sins is surely not pragmatically realised all the way back to Adam, save on the one day of the year service of national judgement by atonement?

The sons of Adam have always had access to sacrifice of atonement for themselves, by house and eventually by nation, with the annual day making them perfect before God for one day, but Jesus' ministry of atonement for his brethren since 1844 has been more than that: this time he's doing the real thing of a lasting perfection, to continue into and throughout eternity, so is barely even similar to Israel's 'one day of the year': the type was RBF perfection for a day, the anti-type is "the righteous deeds of the saints" for this end of "time" and on into eternity.

This is, I think (expect!) agreed by all here, but it needed utterance, with Mark's helpful but seemingly ambiguous comments.:-)

Colin, thank you for the clarification. Another difference between Jesus' MHP ministry and the Levitcal MHP ministry is the effect blotting out the record of sins has on the minds of people. When Jesus' blots out their record of sin in the books of heaven they are simultaneously blotted out of their mind and memory. This difference makes all the difference in the world. In the cases of those who are dead when it happens they will not realize the difference until they are resurrected. But in the cases of the living when it happens they will realize it right away. What do you think?

1. Gal 1 states that there has only been one gospel in all of time. From Eden until today.

2. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit - confession of sins and then forgiveness and cleansing from sin -- the new birth, by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh etc. All this has been going on unchanged from Eden until today.

3. As Paul points out in Heb 10:4 there never was a single sin that was forgiven or paid for by the death of one single animal. No not in all of time.

The saints of Heb 11 were saved and sanctified and walked by faith just as we do today. As Paul said in Heb 4:1 "WE had the gospel preached to us just as THEY also".

4. The Holy Place ministry of Christ does something new in heaven -- it applies the sins of the claimants to the books of record that will be dealt with in the MHP service. So although Enoch was already in heaven when that started -- it moved is case along with the rest of those who "had some claim to the blood of Christ" into the books of record that would be dealt with in the MHP.

5. The M.H.P then takes each case -- "even Enoch" and resolves the question of "by their fruits you shall know them".

Recall that God did not need any of this -- He already knew all the results without doing the long division on the blackboard for all to see.

So that is the "Accounting function"

But there is also a "realtime function" for the phases of the sanctuary.

1. Start of HP - Christ has to have come to earth died and then be resurrected before this can start.

2. Start of MHP - Adventist church has to then launch and the 3 angels messages have to begin.

3. Chose of MHP - those living on the earth have to be ready to stand before a Holy God without a Mediator. Seven last plagues ready to fall. 2nd Coming is next.

Forgiveness was REAL in the OT - (as we see in the case of Enoch, Elijah and Moses etc) because all God has to do is say "I forgive you" and you "ARE" forgiven.

To maintain order in the universe Christ must pay the debt of sin and the full unfolding of the process has to take place before the "myriads and myriads" of non-God beings who need free-will style "evidence" to get unity on the matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Isn't Jesus the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"? If so, didn't the efficacious benefits of the HP ministry start then?