Mark:
Have you determined what the trumpets are? Could you share with us your point of view? As I have said earlier I have not drawn a final conclusion that I can put on paper in a complete form. It is my belief that the trumpets, 1-6 are historical and 7 is sounding. I believe that the trumpets are issues that happened from the time of the fall of Jerusalem and then through the dark ages. I believe that the bulk of the trumpets have more to do with the development of the papacy than with the destruction of Rome. I also believe that old controversies will be repeated, so as the papacy continues to recover from its death wound we should be able to see the same trumpet like behaviors repeated in the development of the papacy and its illicit union with the USA.

Mark,

This thread is not the place to discuss futuristic interpretations of the trumpets. Please note the title of it. I think it would be inappropriate to bring in futurism here when we definitely have other threads where that can be discussed.

Greg,

To clarify what Mark wrote about my position, I favor the idea that the angels blowing the trumpets refer to reformatory messages, and that the hail and fire, burning mountain, etc., refer to military conquests in judgment for Babylon's sins.

While the messages that sounded at the time of Alaric's invasion, Genseric's and Attila's exploits, etc., might be repeated, I don't see how the judgmants, the conquests, can possibly be.

Vigilantius's reform message, against which Jerome railed, sounded at the time of Alaric. If one reads Jerome's work against Pelagius, one gets the idea that Jerome was a much bigger heretic than Pelagius ever was, and he was active during the time of Genseric. Islam railed against idolatry. Huss was burned not long before 1449.

Thus the "trumpets" could theoretically be repeated without the judgments that followed them being repeated.

If you read carefully Mark's post, you will note that he is suggesting that the commencement of the Day of Atonement will be repeated. This thread is not the place to discuss futurism of this sort since we are examining support for an historicist position.

As Bob Pickle is the creator of this topic, I trust we will all respect his parameters and the parameters of the forum rules of MSDAOL and stick to the parameters of this topic.

Now, after saying that, there is nothing stopping Mark or others from using the other existing topic(s) or creating a topic focusing on the future aspect in the same way this topic is focusing on the historical aspect.

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Bob;
Have we settled what we will do with trumpet number 1? Can thefirst trumpet be the destruction of Jerusalem?

Greg,

I don't see how the fall of Jerusalem fits the 1st trumpet. We have to find parameters within the passage for our interpretation. Otherwise, it's every man for himself. And the fall of Jerusalem doesn't seem to fit the parameters that we can find.

Did you read my last post before Mark's?

Bob, Greg & all,
As my thinking on the trumpets is not solidified at all, I am trying to learn from all you fellows have to say. Just wanted you to know that I really DO appreciate the "in depth" study you are doing,and the wonderful Christlike spirit. Just reading it inspires me to go as deep into it as I can. Will be eagerly watching and reading. Thanks!!!

In Christ's Love,

Mike;
I found your statement re the Day of Atonement to be "different". You said:
"Most Adventists would probably agree that the Day of Atonement for much of the world has not begun. How can God hold the world accountable if they haven’t heard the message or if they heard it, the message was drowned out by the sins of the messengers?"
I think the Day of Atonement has started for all. I think all of our probationary periods are still open and God continues to try to minister to us. Yet the Day of Atonement is in effect and God will judge us regarding the light we have not our understanding of the Day of Atonement.

Bob:
I just reviewed your first trumpet in your article. Your premise appears to be that Israel was judged/punished by an invading army - Assyria. You appeared to feel that this punishment came upon them due to drinking false doctrine. If those are your premises then again why wouldn't the same concepts fit into the destruction of Jerusalem? The roman army was coming in due to Israel drinking the golden cup of Babylon and having rejected their King. So the same concepts would be in effect to me.

How would you go about establishing these principles on the papacy? Do you establish the first trumpet on the pagan rome or papal rome or both or what?

If you don't like those then what parameters are using to establish the first trumpet and how do you arrive at those parameters?

Greg,

My premises and parameters need to be considered in their totality.

1. The trumpets as a whole concern the destruction of a heathen city. Jericho in Joshua and Babylon in Revelation.
2. Babylon is identified in the book of Revelation as the city which sits on 7 mtns. Ellen White says point blank in GC that this is Rome.
3. The fact that 2 of the first 4 trumpets use symbols taken from judgments upon Babylon, 1 symbols from judgments upon the northern kingdom of Israel, and 1 symbols from judgments upon the southern kingdom of Judah indicates that we should look for a time when Rome became synonymous with God's people.

In my view, the first 4 trumpets represent what "took out of the way" the power that "let" or prevented the man of sin from arising (2 Th. 2).

This was providential. When the empire became Catholic, the emperor was pope, and under that strong government truth's very existence was threatened. I've read the laws in the Theodotian Code against religion.

By dividing Rome, it gave the church breathing Rome so she could survive. This enabled the little horn to arise, a not-as-strong power amidst warring nations.

Here's another thought. Lk. 21 refers to Jerusalem's destruction and her treading underfoot for the times of the Gentiles. If we lump in Jerusalem in 70 AD with Babylon, then in Lk. 21 we would have Babylon treading underfoot Babylon for the 1260 days. I think it makes more sense to keep Jerusalem separate from Babylon in 70 AD.

Dora,

Glad you find it helpful.

Bob:
I can't argue with your parameters particularly because I do not have a settled perspective on the trumpets as of yet.

I personally do not have the trumpets located in time so the 1260 days do not necessarily apply to the trumpets for me. Do you have something in the trumpets that locks the first trumpet inside the 1260 days?

In reference to Jerusalem. Literal Jerusalem is not the Jerusalem of Luke 21:24. I believe that is referring to the church and its spiritual connection with the heavenly sanctuary. I believe that GC identifies literal Jerusalem to Luke 21:20. I believe that the destruction of literal Jerusalem provides the type for the assault on spiritual Jersualem and spiritual Mt. Zion.

Would appreciate your feedback on this.