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Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Daryl] #84846
02/04/07 09:41 PM
02/04/07 09:41 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
If Christ had quoted from the book of Enoch, I believe the book of Enoch would most likely have been included in the canon.


Why do you believe this? If you discovered that Christ quoted from the pseudepigrapha, would you think the book He quoted from should have been included in the cannon?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Tom] #84848
02/04/07 10:04 PM
02/04/07 10:04 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
I used the words "most likely."

Is there any way of knowing the criteria that was actually used in determining what books would or wouldn't have been in the canon?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Daryl] #84855
02/04/07 10:45 PM
02/04/07 10:45 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
In Jude verse 14, there is what appears to be a direct quote from the book of Enoch. Also googling on these words "christ quote book enoch" produce some interesting results.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Daryl] #84856
02/04/07 10:45 PM
02/04/07 10:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There was already an Old Testament canon before Christ (or Jude) quoted from it (or other sources). I'm curious as to why you think Christ's quoting from something would "most likely" cause the canon to be changed.

If you're interested in knowing the criteria that was used, I'd suggest goolgeing something like "criteria Jewish Old Testament canon" and you'd probably find something.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Tom] #84859
02/04/07 11:15 PM
02/04/07 11:15 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
I think it would be fruitful to this topic to take a look at the criteria used that resulted in the formation of today's Bible.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Daryl] #84864
02/05/07 02:24 AM
02/05/07 02:24 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
The following link shows how the books of the Old Testament were determined:

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Daryl] #84992
02/07/07 05:23 PM
02/07/07 05:23 PM
Darius  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
So, Daryl is here establishing at least one criterion for the canon. Anything that is quoted by Jesus Christ should be in the canon. That is an interesting position because we know that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not original with Jesus. It was part of the established Palestinian folklore. Does that mean that all of Palestinian folklore should be in the canon, since Jesus quoted from it? Under what authority did we keep that rich body of knowledge from the canon?

Last edited by Darius; 02/07/07 05:23 PM.

Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #84993
02/07/07 05:28 PM
02/07/07 05:28 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
I found the following quote from the link Daryl provided to be very interesting:
Quote:
The idea of a "canon" did not originate with the Israelites. They had a model to go on, one which was in circulation in Egyptian and Mesopotamian society. Vasholz [Vash.OTOT, 3-4], using the example of the Poem of Erra and other documents from the 12th to 8th centuries BC, notes these four core (commonsense!) steps:

The deity speaks, and his words are recorded.
The material is faithfully transmitted.
Authenticity is establised by means of blessings for honor, and curses for dishonor, in transcription.
Materials are preserved in a sacred place.


Let us note the first step. "The deity speaks." If we believe that only YHWH could speak that calls into question the model on which the Israelites based their ideas for a canon. But once the people believe, or are made to believe, that the deity speaks to some people they are bound to accept whatever those people claim the deity told them, regardless of the source of that information.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90098
06/27/07 12:29 PM
06/27/07 12:29 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
The following is directly related to the question of the authorship of the Bible.

An e-friend of mine posted this on another forum. I find it to be interesting.


Most people think of the 10 Commandments as the lists in Exodus 20:1-17, or in Deuteronomy 5:6-2, and they're quite similar. But it's interesting to note that the only time in the Pentateuch that the actual words "The Ten Commandments" are used is in Exodus 34, and that chapter lists an entirely different set of commands (Ex. 34:11-26). The next two verses then go on to state:

Quote:
Ex. 34:27. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

That's it. The only time, within the Pentateuch, that the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used. Neither Exodus 20 nor Deuteronomy 5 refers to the rules they list as "the Ten Commandments."

You ought to read these alternate commandments. They can be condensed as follows:

Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
All the first-born are mine.
Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.
Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.
The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk

So my earnest question would be, why, when the Bible very explicitly calls these the Ten Commandments, does everybody else thinks that the Decalogue refers to the others lists, that don't call themselves that?


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is God The Real Author Of The Bible (The Scriptures)? [Re: Darius] #90101
06/27/07 03:11 PM
06/27/07 03:11 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Ex. 34: 28 says, "And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."
Therefore, the ten commandments were those which were written on the tables of stone.
After mentioning the ten commandments, in Deut. 5, Moses says, "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me" (v.22).
Thus you can see that the commandments written on the tables of stone are in fact those mentioned in Ex. 20 and Deut. 5.

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