Paul wrote - I haven't attained perfection yet, but let those of us who are perfect press toward the mark of our high calling.

Philippians 3:12-16
3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

But then later on Paul wrote - I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, hereafter a crown of righteousness awaits me.

2 Timothy 4:6-8
4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?

Please, please when you quote the Bible or SOP include a personal note as to how you believe they support your convictions, no matter how obvious it may seem to you. Thank you.

I get the feeling from the way this passage in Philippians has been cited throughout the various threads in this forum that most of us are under the impression that Paul would have us understand that he was still struggling with certain unnamed defective traits of character.

Is that what you believe? If so, would you be willing to hazard saying which imperfections he was guilty of between writing Philippians and Second Timothy? Which moral sins did he finally overcome by the time he wrote his last epistle?

Or does this Scripture mean something entirely different?

I think that Paul felt as perfect as Daniel. He recognized that he was a sinner, saved by grace, and he recognized that there were things that he might like to do better. On the other hand I think that Paul was in tune with the mind of God and had experience having every thought brought into subjection to the mind of God. He was a perfect sinner in Christ.

I like how you phrased that, Greg. Since we're all sinners - THIS is the level of perfection I think He wants from us!

To love Jesus, to follow Him, and to do the things He asks of us. In that order.

I know a number of people that even though they have their noses buried in the Bible and can pull up just about any verse from memory, they bicker over minute aspects of theology. I'd say that loving Jesus is noticably absent in a lot of those cases...

Being a fairly new Christian, I'm making Jesus #1 before I get into huge (and not terribly productive) arguments over one tiny aspect of law.

If I serve Jesus as my master and do my best to follow His teachings, my failings won't be critical. Like you put it, we too, can be "perfect" sinners.

So, did we ever answer the question? Are we to assume that the growth Paul expected to experience had something to do with laying aside some known or unknown defect of character?

What about Jesus? He began perfect and then He became perfect. Heb 2:10 and 5:9. Obviously, since Jesus never sinned, "going on to perfection" has nothing to do with overcoming "dead works." Heb 6:1.

Doesn't it make sense then to conclude that Paul was talking about maturing as Christian when he wrote that he hadn't attained perfection yet? In fact, will we ever say throughout eternity that we have fully attained unto perfection? Or is eternity long enough to exhaust our ability to grow more and more like Jesus?

If we will continue to go on unto perfection throughtout the ceaseless ages of eternity, and it will have nothing to do with becoming less and less sinful, why then do we assume it has anything to do with sin now? If Jesus is our example of what it's like for born again believers to go on unto perfection, how then can we say it has to do with becoming less sinful?

If Jesus began perfect and then became perfect, why wouldn't it also be that way for people who have crucified self and been born again? Isn't that what Rom 6, Gal 5 and 1 John 3 is all about? I mean, being dead to sin and awake and alive to Christ and His righteousness! And then going on to perfection the same as Jesus did!

Word search “Paul attained” - 42 SOP hits

1. {AA 314.3} 22. {5T 223.3}
2. {AA 562.1} 23. {TSA 9.2}
3. {CT 66.3} 24. {TMK 130.2}
4.{AG 273.5} 25. {PUR, June 29, 1905 par. 9}
5. {GW92 307.1} 26. {RH, March 15, 1887 par. 11}
6. {GW 143.2-4} 27. {RH, October 31, 1899 par. 19}
7. {GC88 469.1} 28. {ST, January 11, 1883 par. 2}
8. {GC88 470.1-3} 29. {ST, July 7, 1887 par. 9}
9. & 10. {GC 469.1- 172.1} 30. {ST, May 26, 1890 par. 4}
11 {HP 143.1-5} 31. {ST, September 22, 1890 par. 5}
12. {LS 302.1 -304.1} 32. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 7}
13.{LHU 149.1 - 6} 33. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 8}
14. {LHU 200.1 - 8} 34. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 9}
15. {Mar 54.1 - 5} 35. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 6}
16. {Mar 231.1 - 4} 36.{YI, November 8, 1894 par. 2}
17. {NL 13.2} (Ch 1. Conversions real or fake.) 37. {YI, March 3, 1908 par. 13}
18. {RC 48.1 - 7} 38. {PH001 7.3}
19. {6BC 1106.6 1107.6} 39. {4MR 273.2}
20. {7BC 903.1 - 2} 40. {7MR 100.4}
21. {SD 200.1 - 201.6} 41. {16MR 275.2}
42. {KC 76.2}
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Chap. 124 - Perfection Through Christ's Merits (hit # 24)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48. {TMK 130.1}
Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . . {TMK 130.2}

How can we reach the perfection specified by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ--our Great Teacher? Can we meet His requirement and attain to so lofty a standard? We can, else Christ would not have enjoined us to do so. He is our righteousness. In His humanity He has gone before us and wrought out for us perfection of character. We are to have the faith in Him that works by love and purifies the soul. Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {TMK 130.3}

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. He has assured us that He is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. {TMK 130.4}

Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character. In falling day by day so far short of the divine requirements, we are endangering our soul's salvation. We need to understand and appreciate the privilege with which Christ invests us, and to show our determination to reach the highest standard. We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us. {TMK 130.5}

Chap. 125 - The Science of Holiness

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess. 3:13. {TMK 131.1}

The ethics inculcated by the gospel acknowledge no standard but the perfection of God's mind, God's will. God requires from His creatures conformity to His will. Imperfection of character is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole. Every one who receives Christ as his personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. This is the science of holiness. . . . {TMK 131.2}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

Before the world, God is developing us as living witnesses to what men and women may become through the grace of Christ. We are enjoined to strive for perfection of character. The divine Teacher says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Would Christ tantalize us by requiring of us an impossibility? Never, never! What an honor He confers upon us in urging us to be holy in our sphere, as the Father is holy in His sphere! He can enable us to do this, for He declares, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18). This unlimited power it is our privilege to claim. . . . {TMK 131.4}

God works with those who properly represent His character. Through them His will is done on earth as it is done in heaven. . . . {TMK 131.5}

It is our lifework to be reaching forward to the perfection of Christian character, striving constantly for conformity to God's will. Day by day we are to press upward, ever upward, until of us it can be said, "Ye are complete in him" (Co. 2:10). {TMK 131.6}

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(hit # 35)
June 3, 1903 "Walk in the Light."

Mrs. E. G. White.

The Christian pilgrim is not left to walk in darkness. Jesus leads the way. Those who follow Him walk in the sunshine of His presence. The path that the pilgrim treads is clear and well defined. Christ's righteousness goes before him--the righteousness that makes possible the good works characterizing the life of every true Christian. God is his rearward. He walks in the light as Christ is in the light. As he travels onward in the Christian journey, he combines faith with earnest endeavor to win others to accompany him. Constantly receiving the light of Christ's presence, constantly he reflects this light to others in words of encouragement and deeds of self-denial. He bears the sign of obedience to God's law, which distinguishes him from those who are not following the pathway that leads to life eternal. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 1}

The Christian pilgrim can not be sour, gloomy, depressed. It is a misrepresentation of the Christian faith to be surly, unreasonable, or sour in spirit. He who walks in the light cherishes no such spirit, but, by conscientious, consistent behaviour, heeds the apostle's admonition to provoke his fellow pilgrims to love and good works. Those who have a careful regard for one another's needs, those who speak words of kindly sympathy, those who give thoughtful assistance to others, to help them in their work, encourage not only their fellow men, but themselves as well, because they thus become laborers together with God. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 2}

If it were not for the light that is given us from above, we could not follow step by step in the footprints of Jesus. Christ came to this world in order that we might have this light. He is "the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." He, the Majesty of heaven, the Son of the living God, the One equal with the Father, came to our world to stand by the side of fallen beings, through His sacrifice giving value to humanity. Lower and still lower He stepped in humiliation, until it was impossible for Him to descend any lower. For our sake He suffered and died. While hanging upon the cross, He exclaimed, "It is finished." He had accomplished His work for us; He had become the propitiation for our sins; He had made it possible for us to be accepted of God through faith in the atoning merits of the Crucified One. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 3}

If from the beginning of our Christian experience we had walked in the counsel of God, many more would have been converted to the Saviour. But often crooked paths have been made. Let us make straight paths, lest the lame be turned out of the way. Let no one follow a crooked path that some one else has made; for thus he would not only go astray himself, but would make this crooked path plainer for some one else to follow. Dear reader, determine that as for yourself, you will walk in the path of obedience. Know for a certainty that you are standing under the broad shield of Omnipotence. Realize that the characteristics of Jehovah must be revealed in your life, and that in you must be accomplished a work that will mould your character after the divine similitude. Yield yourself to the guidance of Him who is Head over all. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 4}

We are doing a work for the judgment. Let us be learners of Jesus. We need His guidance every moment. At every step we should inquire, "Is this the way of the Lord?" not, "Is this the way of the man who is over me?" We are to be concerned only as to whether we are walking in the way of the Lord. Unconsciously every true follower of the Master will say, "Are there not but twelve hours in the day? and am I not working at the close of the day? I must walk in the light as one of the children of light. I must lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset, and run with patience the race that is set before me. I am striving for a crown of glory that fadeth not away." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 5}

To "walk in the light" means to resolve to exercise thought to exert will-power, in an earnest endeavor to represent Christ in sweetness of character. It means to put away all gloom. Let no one rest satisfied simply in saying, "I am a child of God." Are you beholding Jesus, and by beholding, becoming changed into His likeness? To "walk in the light" means advancement and progress in spiritual attainments. Paul declared, "Not as tho I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but . . . forgetting those things which are behind," constantly beholding the Pattern, I reach "forth unto those things which are before." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 6}

To "walk in the light" means to "walk uprightly," to walk "in the way of the Lord," to walk by faith," to "walk in the Spirit." to "walk in the truth," to "walk in love," to "walk in newness of life." It is "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 7}

What a terrible thing it is to darken the pathway of others by bringing shadow and gloom upon ourselves! Let each one take heed to himself. Charge not upon others your defects of character. Talk light; walk in the light. "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." Study not how to please self. Lose sight of self, and behold the multitudes perishing in their sins. Gather to your souls the courage that can come only from the Light of the world. Forgetting self, help the many who are within reach around you. Talk faith, and your faith will increase. Cease lamenting. Work in Christ's lines. With loving endeavor strive to please Him. His excellence will help you to be Christlike. Ever stand ready to lift up the hands that hang down, and to strengthen the feeble knees. Shine as lights in the world, attracting others by the brightness of Christ's glory revealed through your good works. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 8}

God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one humble, trembling follower of His. He will work in the hearts of those who receive Him, making His children pure and holy, by His rich grace qualifying them to be laborers together with Him. With keen sanctified perception they will appreciate the strength of His promises, and appropriate them, not because of any worthiness of their own, but because by living faith they avail themselves of the benefits of Christ's sacrifice, and receive the robe of His righteousness. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 9}

My fellow traveler in the Christian way, as you walk in the light, pray, simply trusting in Jesus your Redeemer. Walk so that your life will reflect rays of light to others. Confide in the love of Jesus, and you will have grace to save perishing souls. Your path will be as the path of the just,--a "shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 10}

Edward, praise God for those awesome and inspiring quotations. It is just so amazing what God can do for those who are completely surrendered and submitted to the Holy Spirit of promise.

Did you notice that she never once said that the gift of perfection is available only after years of failing and falling? It's ours now if we will have Jesus! True, we begin as perfect babes in Christ, just as Jesus began a perfect baby, but we do not begin perfectly mature in the fruits of the Spirit, just like Jesus did not begin perfectly mature. We have the rest of eternity to mature and to become more and more like sweet Jesus. Thank you Lord.

When Paul wrote - "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after... I press toward the mark" - what did he mean? Phil 3:12,14.

1. Did he mean he still has certain unknown moral imperfections yet to lay aside?
2. Or did he mean he still slips in and out of known sin?
3. Or did he mean he is still in the process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?
4. Or did he mean something else?

Also, in what way is Jesus an example of this statement by Paul? Or can we apply this quote to Jesus while He was here on earth?

How do these quotes help us answer the questions I've raised in this thread?

TMK 130.2
Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15).

AA 551.1
"Let us not love in word," the apostle writes, "but in deed and in truth." The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. It is the atmosphere of this love surrounding the soul of the believer that makes him a savor of life unto life and enables God to bless his work.

COL 384.2
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance.

Question:
Is the "completeness of Christian character" available now? or must we spend most of our life in pursuit of it? while in the meantime we are not a savor of life unto life, and devoid of the sunshine of heaven?

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike wrote:

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?
Unquote.

Paul is talking that he is justified by his faith even tough he is not perfect in character. He is justified by his faith because he lives for God, he gave himself to be lead by the Spirit, and he lived by faith.

But speaking of Character: “The Spirit is against the flesh and the flesh is against the Spirit, so, that you will keep doing the things that you do not want to do (evil). But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Galatians 5:16-18.

That is saying, even though we are led by the Spirit, but that doesn’t make us the Spirit, because the Spirit is not us and we are not the Spirit. SIN of self-love is our character and the desire of the flesh is our nature, as long as we live in the flesh, we will follow it once upon a time. It is of course a “sin” to do what the flesh desire, but their “sin and transgression I will remember no more” because “you are under grace and not under the law.” The law cannot judge us because we are not under it jurisdiction and God will remember our sins no more.

This is a life by faith, a life without the law, a life led by the Spirit, trusting God completely that He will lead us to all righteousness and holy life by changing imparting His love in our heart as fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law.

So is God’s justification, it is a justification by faith without the law (Romans 3:21,22).

Paul has reached the mark, in Jesus Christ, by his faith with an imperfect character because he still has the body of the flesh with it desires in it (that need to be abandon and change with a new body at Christ 2nd coming), but what important is, that he has the love of God that seeks no self as fruit of the Spirit in his heart, enabling him and welcome him to enter heaven and live with all other beings that have no love for self, because there is no place in heaven for a man with selfish love.

In His love

James S.

How can Spirit-powered obedience abolish the law?