Mike.

How can Spirit-powered obedience abolish the law?

Unquote.

Obedience to what?

The Spirit obeys nothing, He does as He pleases, but His deeds are perfect because it is by love, and love is His nature.

Men’s obedience needs a model or pattern to obey such as the 10 commandments. But their deeds of obedience is “dirty rag”, because it is his desire to obey and his desire is the desire of the flesh that is under the power of SIN (self-love). Thus, his deeds are just the deeds of the flesh, based on self-love that is his nature.

You are either lead by the Spirit or by your self, there is no cooperation work between both, as the Spirit desire is against the flesh desire (Galatians 5:17), so, the Spirit could never empowered you to live by the flesh, including in keeping the law.

“If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Galatians 5:18.

That says, if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the obligation to keep the law, to be under it judgment and condemnation.

In His love

James S.

James,

Your thoughts completely confuse me. I don't understand how the Holy Spirit can empower us to live in harmony with the law while at the same time we are not obeying the law. What?

Mike.

You still don't get it.

A believer who are not under the law, have no obligation whatsoever to keep and obey the law, because there is no law for him.

But this believer lives by faith according to the Spirit, and he has the fruit of the Spirit that is in harmony with the principle of the law "love that seeks no self."

"Love does no harm to his fellowman, because love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13; 10)."

This believer has "deeds" of love as fruit of the Spirit, not because of obeying and keeping any law. Although there is no law (10 Commandments), he lives according to it principle.

That means, although there is no law, but he didn't live according to the flesh that is against the principle of the law and breaks the 10 Commandments engraved on stone tablets.

But a believer who keeps the law would only stand against the principle of the law that could not be gained through keeping the law. No wonder, the whole world become guilty and is under God's judgment as no one is right before God and His holy law, by his law obedience his SIN was revealed and become more sinful (Romans 3:19,20; 7:7,13). No one could perform what the law demands (love) as this could only happen when some one is led by the Spirit.

But the Spirit could only work and perform this “love” to change man’s nature of “self-love” ONLY when he trust God and surrender himself completely to what the Spirit desire, and not to live according to the flesh that includes obedience in keeping the 10 Commandments.

Logically, when the Spirit made us in harmony with the law, there is no need for us to keep and obey any law even the 10 Commandments, because keeping the law is OUR DESIRE (the desire of the flesh) not the Spirit desire. What the Spirit desires is leading you, making you in harmony with the principle of the law through a change of character, not through obedience to the law.

“It is God who works in you to will and to do” (Philippians 2:13).

When you want to do what you will or desire, you are living by the flesh! And that includes keeping and obeying the law.

The Spirit desire is against the flesh desire (Galatians 5:16), so it is impossible that the Spirit empower a believer to keep the law, which is the desire of the flesh. The truth is “The Spirit empower a believer to deny the flesh, self denial.”

In His love

James S.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

All humans belivers or not are required by God to obey Him flawlessly. It is their duty.

The Christian has went through the change of heart, whereby they desire to obey that which is their duty to do. Now they are connected to Jesus Christ by His promises and hold to those promises by living faith that operates to put those promises to their implied & intended use.

The non Christian is obligated to obey God equally so, but is not willing and lives apart from partnership with Jesus Christ and partaking of His nature through His claimed promises.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

James, I'm still not sure how being in harmony with the law does away with the law. But I realize you are not saying that born again believers violate the principles of the law.

Edward, thank you pointing out how the law requires of all mankind, whether saved or lost, perfection of character, and that this promise is possible only in Jesus. Amen!

But what about Paul's statements quoted at the beginning of this thread?

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?

Mike.

James, I'm still not sure how being in harmony with the law does away with the law. But I realize you are not saying that born again believers violate the principles of the law.

Unquote.

Born again believers who live by the Spirit will live in harmony with the principle of the law, because love is fruit of the Spirit and love fulfils the demands of the law. So to say, their deeds will not violate the letter of the law.

Living in harmony with the law does away the keeping and obedience to the law, because this harmony is not “our own” deeds but “fruit of the Spirit” or the “willing and the doing of God” (Philippians 2:13), not our will.

If it is our will (to be in harmony with the law by keeping and obey it), it is the desire of the flesh and the deeds are deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). This happens because our will is under dominion of SIN, which is love for self. And whatever “good deeds” that was born from self is not good enough for God and His holy law as these deeds was based on self-love, because what is good before God and His law is “love that seeks no self.”

All men are under SIN (Romans 3:12) and all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), this makes all our “good deeds” including obedience to the law is evil before God and His holy law (Isaiah 64:6).

This SIN of self love in us (Romans 7:17,20) makes all our deeds is sin as it is against the principle of the law “love that seeks no self.” This SIN in us bore fruits of sins, or deeds of the flesh.

Only through living by faith and according to the Spirit, a believer might have this “love that seeks no self” as fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the righteous demands of the law (Romans 8:4). And if he lives by faith according to the Spirit, he must put away the law.

“The law is not of faith…” (Galatians 3:12); the law requires obedience and it doesn’t care you have faith or not. Before faith come the law functions as a school master, but when you have faith in Christ now, you don’t need the law to supervise you any longer; “25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law” (Galatians 3:23-24).

If a believer still needs the law to supervise him and teach him to behave and live according to the law, in a sense, he is not living by faith, because faith is trusting and believing to something unseen and doesn’t need proof (Hebrews 11:1). And by looking to the letter of the law, keeping and obeying it, makes some one an unbeliever.

In His love

James S.

“Whatsoever that is not of faith is SIN” (Romans 14:23); because the law is not of faith, then keeping it is a sin. As living by faith is in contrary with living by the flesh that is under dominion of SIN, so, without faith, our deeds comes from SIN or based on self-love. In other word, whatever is not fruit of the Spirit (through living by faith) are deeds of SIN.

“But if you lived by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18), that is the same as “but SIN will not be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).

Combining it gives a meaning; living by the Spirit, you are not under the jurisdiction of the law, which is to keep and obey the law. And if you are not under the law, SIN will not be your master, because without a will to do something of yourself (like keeping the law), SIN is powerless. “Without the law SIN is dead (Romans 7:8).

In other words; if “you” want to keep and obey the law, SIN has the chance to work in you all kinds of covetous desires, it will master you and dominate you. “For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.” and “But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead; For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death” (Romans 7:5,8,11).

God wants to change your character of self-love to His character that loves no self, and He did this through the work of His Spirit in a believer’s heart that live by the Spirit. He could not do this in a believer heart that wants to do his own will such as keeping the law, because by being under the law, SIN of self-love will ruled in his heart and gives no room to the Spirit.

Let’s Christ be our focus and He will lead us in faith and brings our faith to perfection.

In His love

James S.

James, thank you for further clarifying your point. You make a valid point, but it was hard for me at first to grasp it. It is true, any obedience rendered outside a saving relationship with Jesus is "filthy rags." Keeping the law apart from partaking of the divine nature comes short of the glory of God. What do you think about the following quote, especially the highlighted sentences?

Desires of Ages, page 466
Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth, for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2. {DA 466.3}

In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12. {DA 466.5}

What about Paul's statements quoted at the beginning of this thread?

What is he talking about? 1) Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? 2) And that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? 3) Or does he mean something entirely different?

COL 384.2 - "Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance."

Is the "completeness of Christian character" available now?

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike.

To commend on your post dated April 23, 2002 12:31 PM ;

I would say that I talk the same with EGW.

We are either under control of our own (under dominion of SIN) or under control of the Spirit if we have faith in Christ and surrender our self to Him by denying the flesh.

And if Christ sets us free from SIN, why would He instruct us to keep and obey His law that would only put us back again under dominion of SIN and through our law keeping our SIN is revealed? It doesn’t make sense!

In His love

James S.