Rosangela, I agree we are born condemned - but for very different reasons. You seem to be saying we are born condemned based on the sinful traits and tendencies and character we inherit. Whereas I believe we are born condemned based on the sins we ourselves have committed. "All have sinned." True, infants commit sins ignorantly, nevertheless, the blood of Jesus is required to atone for them.

Do we inherit character?

No! We inherit character traits and tendencies which cause us to begin developing sinful character from the moment we are capable of conscious thought.

I don't think we are condemned by evil traits and tendencies. We are, however, condemned by evil character. And if a baby is born with an evil character, then he starts out in the hole, so to speak.

Well, we differ because, as I see it, Ellen White says clearly we inherit a sinful character, and what makes our character sinful is the selfishness all of us inherit.

Arnold, I agree. We are not condemned based on the sinful traits and tendencies we inherit. However, you wrote "if a baby is born with an evil character". The word "if" implies you're not sure. I believe we are born sinning. "All have sinned." But I do not believe we are born with a well developed character. Character is the result of repeatedly, habitually acting out the unholy thoughts and feelings that come into mind via sinful flesh nature.

Do you agree?

I believe, taking into consideration everything else she wrote about it, that by "character" Sister White means predisposed traits and tendencies. Since character is the byproduct of repetitious choices and behavior, it is clear to me that we are not conceived or born with character.

Nor are we condemned based on the sinful, selfish quality of the traits and tendencies we inherit. Also, traits and tendencies cannot commit a sin. They can only clamor for sinful expression. They can only tempt us from within to sin. Sinning is the stuff of choice and character. What condemns us is the sins we commit and the sinful character we develop.

Sin is not a person or place. Rather, sin is a thing. Sin is the transgression of the law. It is a state of doing, not a state of being. Sin is what we think, say, or do. It is not what we are. Do you agree?

Our traits of character compose our character. This to me is obvious.

But many have inherited traits of character that in no way represent the divine Model. There are many who have some defect of character received as a birthright, which they have not overcome, but have cherished as though it were fine gold, and brought with them into their religious experience. In many cases these traits are retained through the entire life. For a time no particular harm may be seen to result from them; but the leaven is at work, and when a favorable opportunity arrives, the evil manifests itself. {5T 418.1}

If we are Christ's representatives, we shall work the works of Christ. Let none of us deceive ourselves with the idea that we can carry into our religious life the crookedness of character, the unchristian traits, which have been transmitted to us as a birthright and strengthened by education. Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong. {RH, December 22, 1885 par. 5}

Many have received, as their birthright, both strong and weak points of character, which are positive defects. These peculiarities color the entire life. {4T 360.2}

Another point is that sin stains the character. How can someone sin before having a character (in the case, an unborn baby)?

Man cannot change his own heart or atone for his own sins. He cannot remove one spot or stain of sin from the character. -Letter 33, 1894, pp. 3, 4. (To Lucinda Hall, August 23, 1894.)

If one single sin had tainted His [Christ's] character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished. --Ms. 81, 1893, p. 11.


Character is both what we are and what we do, and what we do almost always results from what we are. "Sinful" describes both what we are and what we do, therefore, sin is both what we are and what we do. Selfishness is sin, whether in us or in our acts.

Thank you for sharing. I think we both we agree God will judge us and determine our eternal destiny based on the character we develop, not on the character traits we inherit.

Believe me, I am sure. In this case, the "if" indicates conditionality, not doubt. IOW, whenever a baby is born with an evil character, that baby is born in need of a Savior.



If sin is defined as a state of being, then I agree. If sin requires a willful disregard of a known command, then I disagree. If sin is defined as inherent in one's physical actions, then the definition is flawed.



That's past tense. How can that be true for a newborn who has no actions in his account?



I disagree.

Take any baby. Does it have thoughts and feelings? Yes. To what are those thoughts and feelings directed? Invariably, they are directed to self; more specifically, to the gratification of self.

Question: Is it an easy matter to change the course of that baby's thoughts and feelings such that they are focused on God and glorifying Him? No.

That's why I say that their characters - thoughts and feelings - are well-developed. And by the time they are 7 years old, their characters will be much more solidified.



I don't agree that thoughts and feelings are generated by a "sinful nature" that is a separate entity from human nature, which is composed of the physical, mental, and moral. Unholy thoughts and feelings are generated by an unholy mind. There is nothing else in man that generates thoughts and feelings.

Of course, I'm guessing that you don't agree with that because that would make it impossible for Jesus to have the "sinful nature" and still have a holy mind. That's one reason why I'm not postlapsarian.

So babies have no thoughts or feelings?



If so, then babies cannot commit sin by your definition because they have neither choice nor character.



I definitely disagree.

Have you listened to my sermon Roots and Fruits? If you haven't, get it at http://seegoservices.com/SermonAudio.aspx. I addressed this topic there. Let me know what you think.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Are babies conceived or born righteous or unrighteous or something in between?

I believe they are born unrighteous, in need of a Savior.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Did you know that the word "transgress" (and its related forms) is not in the Greek in that verse? The word translated "transgresseth" is poieo in the Greek. And the word translated "committeth" is also poieo.

The basic definition of poieo is to make or to do.

So what do we have there? Whosoever poieo sin poieo also the law. Whosoever does sin does also the law. What's going on here?

"Law" (Gr nomos) is not in the verse. Instead, we have anomia - which is a combination of "a" (meaning "without" - ex: amoral, asynchronous) and "nomos." Essentially, anomia = without law, or as some translations have it, lawlessness. The 2nd occurrence of anomia in the verse is translated "transgression of the law."

To round out our quickie Greek review, the word translated "sin" is hamartia. This one should be familiar to many.

Here's what we have now: Whosoever committeth hamartia committeth also anomia: for hamartia is anomia. Here it is in modern English: Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. (NKJV)

Now, back to the babies. Are babies born with nomos or anomia in their hearts and minds? Are they born with God's law of selfless love written on their hearts, or selfishness? Law or lawlessness? (You can refer to my sermon to find out what I think of God's law.)

Based on the Bible and SOP I've read over the years, (not to mention my experience with babies) I am convinced that we are born in anomia. In sin did our mothers conceive and bear all of us.

Plainly stated, anomia is death. And that's where we start out. If we are to live eternally, we must cross over from death to life, because nobody starts out having life.