Tall, thank you. Your ideas lead me to wonder if Jesus has already placed the sins of the saints upon the head of Satan? If so, when did this happen? Is Satan now wandering in the wilderness?

Also, one of the many things that make the heavenly sanctuary "better" than the earthly is the fact once Jesus blots out our record of sin and places them upon Satan we will be unable to recall the specific sins we committed. When will this part of Jesus' ministration be fulfilled?

Hebrews
9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Revelation
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Isaiah
65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

3SG 134, 135
Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. {3SG 134.2}

The scapegoat portion of the day of atonement occurred after the high priest exited the temple.

He made the sacrifice and cleansed the temple, then came out and conducted it.

Notice the parallels:

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Jesus completed the cleansing that was compared to the high priest's cleansing once a year. He did this by entering heaven itself, directly into God's presence. Though unlike the earthly high priest who would then quickly withdraw, He stayed.

That part of the service is done. The next thing mentioned is his coming not to bear sin but to bring salvation, and then we will see the things you spoke of.

The daily sacrifice and the priestly ministration benefited all those who professed to be children of God, but if the person sinned deliberately, the sacrifice ceased to benefit him/her. Like in the parable of Matt. 18, forgiveness was revoked.

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment... How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:26, 27, 29)


What do you mean by saying that Christ literally and actually bore our sin? What I believe is that our sins were imputed (attributed) to Christ, in the same way that His righteousness is imputed to us. This means He assumed the responsibility for our sins, and the consequent punishment - the suffering sin brought to His soul. Is this what you mean?


Let's go by parts. A Substitute was necessary to prevent the outpouring of the wrath of God against sin upon the sinner. In your opinion, was Christ bearing sins before the cross or not?


It means the judge has to examine all the evidence regarding both parties, and hear the respective witnesses (Deut. 19:15, 2 Cor. 13:1, 1 Tim. 5:19, etc.). How else can a judge establish who is right and who is wrong? Even if a child of the judge was to be judged, this is the correct procedure to be followed by any fair, respectable, and transparent judge, whether in the ancient Hebrew culture or today. Obviously, the right party has nothing to fear about the judgment.


Well, the dead in Christ will rise at Christ’s coming, and the saints who are alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). So, who is left? Anyway, are you contending that Heb. 9:27 doesn’t apply to the group of those who go to heaven with Christ at His coming?


We will obviously be present, together with the rest of the inhabitants of the universe, at the judgment which will occur at the close of the millennium, but it doesn’t seem to me that our works will be examined then. Revelation says:

“Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done” (Rev. 20:11-13).

So this judgment is only for those who were dead during the millennium, which is not the case of those who were resurrected at Christ’s coming.


It does not make sense to me for the person to be judged after he/she is already enjoying the reward. Paul himself says: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor. 5:10).


In the lives of the saints, sin will cease to exist when probation closes, Christ ceases to mediate and leaves heaven to take His children home.

“Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done” (Rev. 22:11, 12).


The shed blood of the victim represents Christ’s shed blood (1 Pet. 1:19, etc.). The fact that the priest made atonement with the blood represents Christ’s atonement with His blood in the sanctuary (Heb. 9:12). What act of Christ does the fact that the priest ate the sin offering to make atonement with it represent?


Who said that? The sin was transferred to the victim, but did the victim become defiled because of that? No, it was still holy, as you pointed out. Christ wasn't defiled by bearing our sins on the cross. In the same way, the priest wouldn't be defiled by bearing the sins of the people.


The text says:

“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

What I see is that the text is making a contrast between the first and the second comings of Christ – in His first coming, He came to die and bear the sins of many, but in His second coming He will come apart from sin, that is, not to bear sins, but to consummate salvation. I don’t see how this text contradicts the view that Christ continues to be the sin-Bearer today.

As far as the scope of this topic goes, as long as the discussion remains sincere and respectful, as it presently is, it is wide open.

I also appreciate the way this topic is being studied and discussed.

I will try to respond to the other points a bit later, but I guess my question for Daryl is whether it is best to start a new thread on each aspect (for instance, the context of Dan. 8) or just to progress to that in this thread.

Either way is fine with me.

To avoid confusion, feel free to create new threads as the opportunity/situation arises.

Tall, thank you. But if Jesus hasn't placed the sins of the saved upon Satan yet where are they?

Once Jesus blots out our record of sin we will be unable to recall the specific sins we committed. When will this part of Jesus' ministration be fulfilled?

Tall, thank you. But if Jesus hasn't placed the sins of the saved upon Satan yet where are they?

Sin is not something which occupies a physical location, like a toothpick. You cannot literally place the sin of one person onto another, as if you were taking a toothpick from him and giving it to the other person.

One should ask what the different symbolic acts mean. Taking things literally which are obviously not literal is counterproductive.

Asking where a sin is doesn't make any more sense than asking where a good work is. If one does a good work, like walking an old lady across the street, can that good work go somewhere else? Can it be placed on another person?


Once Jesus blots out our record of sin we will be unable to recall the specific sins we committed. When will this part of Jesus' ministration be fulfilled?

God will not perform a lobotomy on us, forcing our memories to become deficient. When the Scripture says that God will remember our sins no more, that doesn't mean that His memory becomes faulty.

Here's something E. J. Waggoner wrote:



"They have forgotten the sin itself-they do not think of doing it any more." This makes sense.

Tom, the Bible and the SOP treat our sins as if they are "toothpicks", things which can be moved from one location to another. Who am I to treat them otherwise? Thus, the question remains: "If Jesus hasn't placed the sins of the saved upon Satan yet where are they?" Are they still in the heavenly sanctuary, in the most holy place? Is Jesus still bearing them about in His body?

Also, concerning whether or not we will be unable to recall our specific sins, Sister White plainly wrote: "They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance." This passage needs no interpretation.

Tom, the Bible and the SOP treat our sins as if they are "toothpicks", things which can be moved from one location to another.

In symbols, but not in reality. Sins are not toothpicks. God knows that.

Who am I to treat them otherwise?

A person with a brain, and discernment, able to figure out what is literal and what isn't.

Thus, the question remains: "If Jesus hasn't placed the sins of the saved upon Satan yet where are they?" Are they still in the heavenly sanctuary, in the most holy place? Is Jesus still bearing them about in His body?

What do you think sin is, MM? Wouldn't you say it is transgression of the law? Transgressions can be recorded, but not moved around from place to place (unless the transgressor is moved around).

When Scripture speaks of sin being transferred, a process is being described. It's not meant to be taken literally.

For example, there was bread in the first compartment of the sanctuary. This represents Jesus Christ, the Bread of Life. But Jesus Christ is not a literal loaf of bread.


Also, concerning whether or not we will be unable to recall our specific sins, Sister White plainly wrote: "They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance." This passage needs no interpretation.

You seem to think that "they cannot bring to mind any particular sins" to mean that their memories have become faulty. But the faulty memory is not the issue at all. The issue has to do with unpardoned sin. They can think of no sins to confess.

Here's the quote:



Note the topic sentence: "Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life." This brings out that Jacob *repented* of his sin. Jacob didn't forget what he did, but he repented of his sin.

What you're suggesting, that the people forget what they did, wouldn't solve any problems. It would make God to be petty, as if some requirement He has could be satisfied by a person's faulty memory.

The context is clear that the people can bring to mind no sins to confess ("if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them ). They have no "concealed wrongs" to reveal. It's not that they can't think of sins they've committed, but they can't think of any sins they need to confess.