Other animals besides humans would also die without an sensory input. It would be pretty difficult to prove that the reason for death was because of its feelings, which I seriously doubt is true anyway (although I think think this is a moot point in the context of your real concern, which I take it is that the lusts of the flesh are generated in the mind).

My point, guys, is that I don't agree that the lusts of the flesh are generated in the five senses. They are generated in the mind.

John wrote, "If you did not have eyes that could see, your mind could by no means generate the "lust of the eyes". So which comes first; which is the source? It is what the eye sees that the mind can think about."

You are saying that you disagree, because you assert, "they are generated in the mind" but John wrote, "If you did not have eyes that could see, your mind *could by no means generate * ....

So you're not really disagreeing here, in this assertion, with what John said, since John did not write that mind does not generate, but addressed the source.

Sometimes an input of the five senses is used, but this is not always the case. If the origin of the lusts of the flesh was in the five senses, this would mean that those who are blind, or deaf, or have any other handicap, would sin less, and there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case.

This is very poor logic. For one thing, as a blind person relies on the sense of hearing more than a seeing person does, said blind person could commit more hearing based sins to make up for the lack of sins due to sight.

If someone lost his five senses, would he cease to sin?

You can sin just as much based on something you remember you saw as well as based on something you are presently seeing. The sense of sight would still be involved. Similarly one can imagine seeing things, but if one had never had sight, this would be impossible (which was John's point).

I understand John to be talking about what one chooses to use as the source of one's thoughts and decisions. If we choose to let things generated by the flesh be our source (whether by things we presently sense, or remember, or imagine), then we are living by the flesh. Our other choice is to allow the Spirit to guide us, to have our source for the thoughts we dwell upon be from above, in which case we live by the Spirit.


Did Helen Keller sin less than other people because she was blind and deaf?

She probably committed less sight and hearing based sins, and more tactile based sins. Mabye more smelling sins too. Tasting sins I'm guessing about the same.

Tom, what I'm trying to say is that I see sins not related to the five senses. For instance, if I'm proud because I have a talent to memorize things quickly, or because I am very fast at mental calculations, I don't think this sin has anything to do with my five senses.
Also, if I lost my five senses and remebered that I could see the sun, hear the beautiful melody of birds, feel the touch of the wind, smell the fragrance of flowers and taste the sweetness of an apple, and then plunged in self-pity because I had lost all this, the problem would not be in my memories (for there is nothing wrong in any of these), but in my mind - in the selfishness which leads me to self-pity.

Rosangela, if you do not have the 5 senses, you would never have anything to memorize, and your thoughts would never have a reference to do calculations. You would likewise never know what is fast, as you would have no reference of time and space. You would really have no concept of your own existence.

In fact since you have no ability of contact with anything outside of yourself, or within yourself, and hence no awareness of anything existing you would not have any concept of pride which is a relational thing. You likewise could not have any way of knowing that you are sick in any way.

P.S. one needs to have at least one sense of "some kind" which would connect him with the outside world before any awareness of such could exist.

1. Sin, as a concept, will never be eliminated. Sin is an eternal truth. Sins, as thoughts, words, and deeds, will be eliminated with sinners in the lake of fire.

2. The punishment and destruction of sins and sinners will occur when God rains down (1) fire upon sinners at the end of time. The glory of God is also a consuming (2) fire. It causes sinners and rubbish to catch on fire and burn up. Exactly what role these two different sources of fire will play in the punishment and destruction and elimination of sins and sinners in the lake of fire is not clear to me.

3. We inherit the sinful traits and tendencies of our parents, and their parents, dating all the way back to Adam and Eve. These "internal foes" tempt us from within to express our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful way. It is fallen flesh that tempts us from within to sin. The avenues of the soul (five senses) is not the flesh. The mind is not the flesh. If we were born with none of the five senses, our fallen nature would still be able to tempt us from within. Even if Satan were dead and gone, our sinful flesh would continue to tempt us.

SL 92, 93
The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. (SL 92, 93)

2T 507
If we make God our trust, we have it in our power to control the mind in these things. Through continued exercise it will become strong to battle with internal foes and to subdue self, until there is a complete transformation, and the passions, appetites, and will are brought into perfect subjection. (2T 507)

AA 476
He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ’s strength for victory. (AA 476)

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

Rosangela, I don't see how one can even conceive of anything that has nothing to do with our senses. How does that even make sense? (sense, hah!; no pun intended).

For example, if you memorize things quickly, how do you do so? Undoubtedly you either mentally see things, or hear them (or mentally apply some other sense). Apart from some sense being involved, there's nothing to memorize.

If you do fast mental calculations, you see the numbers (or whatever you're calculating) in your head as you manipulate them.

If you have self-pity because of a disease, you are thinking of the consequence of your disease, which involves how you look, how you feel, etc.

All information we process involves our senses in one form or another.


Tom

1. Sin, as a concept, will never be eliminated. Sin is an eternal truth. Sins, as thoughts, words, and deeds, will be eliminated with sinners in the lake of fire.

Let's make this really simple. "Sin will be no more." That's correct, isn't it?

2. The punishment and destruction of sins and sinners will occur when God rains down (1) fire upon sinners at the end of time. The glory of God is also a consuming (2) fire. It causes sinners and rubbish to catch on fire and burn up. Exactly what role these two different sources of fire will play in the punishment and destruction and elimination of sins and sinners in the lake of fire is not clear to me.

This punishment or destruction is very minor in the process of what causes sin to be no more. To think this is the primary reason sin will be no more is to not understand the fundamental issues involved.

3. We inherit the sinful traits and tendencies of our parents, and their parents, dating all the way back to Adam and Eve. These "internal foes" tempt us from within to express our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful way.

I think this is quite well put, except I'm not sure if "internal foes" applies.

It is fallen flesh that tempts us from within to sin. The avenues of the soul (five senses) is not the flesh. The mind is not the flesh. If we were born with none of the five senses, our fallen nature would still be able to tempt us from within.

This makes no sense to me. Tempt us how? Without senses, there is no information to process, and hence nothing to tempt us by or with.

Even if Satan were dead and gone, our sinful flesh would continue to tempt us.

This is true. This is also true of Christ (i.e., that He was not only tempted by Satan, but by His flesh as well).

SL 92, 93
The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. (SL 92, 93)

2T 507
If we make God our trust, we have it in our power to control the mind in these things. Through continued exercise it will become strong to battle with internal foes and to subdue self, until there is a complete transformation, and the passions, appetites, and will are brought into perfect subjection. (2T 507)

AA 476
He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ’s strength for victory. (AA 476)

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

Guys, but the senses are not the source or root of my sin. See my last example, as I've edited my previous post.

Rosangela, if you lost all your senses, you would be nothing but a memory.

No more data to process.

You are right, your senses are not the problem. But, it is by making them the source (by placing faith in them) of your thought and governance, that sin results.

Rosangela, in all your examples, your mind is reacting to something it perceives through the senses, either directly or indirectly (e.g. memories).