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Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: Rosangela] #91898
09/18/07 04:48 PM
09/18/07 04:48 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If I was blind and deaf, if I couldn't smell or taste and had no touch, couldn't I feel angry?


About what?

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: John Boskovic] #91899
09/18/07 05:57 PM
09/18/07 05:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
About living a very boring life, in darkness, for instance. About feeling lonely. About not being able to communicate with others. I could find many reasons.
Couldn't I also be selfish, plunging in self-pity?

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: Rosangela] #91900
09/18/07 06:36 PM
09/18/07 06:36 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
About living a very boring life, in darkness, for instance. About feeling lonely. About not being able to communicate with others. I could find many reasons.
Couldn't I also be selfish, plunging in self-pity?


How would you ever know about any of that?
How would you have the ability of feeling, and not have the ability of sensory touch?

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: John Boskovic] #91901
09/18/07 09:47 PM
09/18/07 09:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It's an interesting question, Rosangela. My gut reaction is similar to John's, that without any senses, how would you know anything? Or, better, how could you know anything?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: John Boskovic] #91902
09/18/07 10:18 PM
09/18/07 10:18 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
How would you ever know about any of that?

We are born with needs - the need to interact with others, to feel close to others, to be loved, etc. The absence of these things brings, although unconsciously, feelings of loneliness, frustration, and anger. The problem is that the person doesn't survive long, because these feelings virtually kill. Experiences after the World War II show that babies that are not touched, although adequately fed, simply die in 100% of the cases.

 Quote:
How would you have the ability of feeling, and not have the ability of sensory touch?

The first is an emotional ability intrinsic to our brain; the second is a physical ability, related to nerve endings (although capable of being interpreted emotionally by the brain).

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: Rosangela] #91904
09/19/07 12:10 AM
09/19/07 12:10 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
A newborn would know virtually nothing, and, as you point out, it would quickly die without the ability to sense anything.

I'm not getting what your point is, Rosangela.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: Rosangela] #91905
09/19/07 12:18 AM
09/19/07 12:18 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I do not dispute how we are born and the comments you make on that. However that was not your question when you said: "If I was blind and deaf, if I couldn't smell or taste and had no touch, couldn't I feel angry?"

The conditions that man is born in are different than you suggested, aren't they? It would be rather erroneous of God to create a being with a preprogrammed need to communicate and interact while providing no means to communicate and interact with.

Anyhow what is your point in relation to my comments on living by the flesh or by the spirit? What are you contending or trying to bring across?

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: John Boskovic] #91907
09/19/07 11:38 AM
09/19/07 11:38 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
A newborn would know virtually nothing, and, as you point out, it would quickly die without the ability to sense anything.

Tom, the newborn dies because of its feelings, so a child has a mind with thoughts and feelings even without the input of the five senses.

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: Rosangela] #91908
09/19/07 11:44 AM
09/19/07 11:44 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Your point is....???

Are you just pointing out how the old man would die when the senses are not the source?

Re: The Concept of Sin, of Punishment, Etc. [Re: John Boskovic] #91909
09/19/07 11:50 AM
09/19/07 11:50 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Arnold had said:
 Quote:
But aren't the lusts of the flesh, which strive for the mastery, generated in the mind? Aren't the promptings of the flesh function of the mind, and not any other part of the human anatomy?


To which John had replied:
 Quote:
If you did not have eyes that could see, your mind could by no means generate the "lust of the eyes". So which comes first; which is the source? It is what the eye sees that the mind can think about.


My point, guys, is that I don't agree that the lusts of the flesh are generated in the five senses. They are generated in the mind. Sometimes an input of the five senses is used, but this is not always the case. If the origin of the lusts of the flesh was in the five senses, this would mean that those who are blind, or deaf, or have any other handicap, would sin less, and there is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. If someone lost his five senses, would he cease to sin? Did Helen Keller sin less than other people because she was blind and deaf?

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