Guys, if all the memories of a sinful man were erased and he was taken to live in heaven (where all the input is good), would he still sin or not?

Rosangela, your question has to do with the position of faith. If one puts his faith in his being/abilities/senses to make them the source of his thought and governance it will result in sin.

I quote my previous post:


Please also read carefully what I wrote before, it already answered your question. I quote my previous post:



The difference is whether the spirit of the Lord is the source and governor of the thoughts in regards to the input perceived through the senses, or whether we have made the senses themselves the governor of the thoughts.

ie: as per your example: senses tell you you are badly sick and feel miserable, if the senses have been made the source governing thought, what you said (complaining, self pity, etc)will be course of the thoughts. But if on the other hand the spirit of the Lord is the source governing the thoughts then the thoughts will seek his purpose and glory.

Does that clarify?

This quote is referring to the sins committed by sinners, not to sin. That makes it simple, right?


Okay, but what causes sins and sinners to be no more? It is the glory of God? Or, is it the fire that He rains down upon sinners and the rubbish of the earth?


Internal foes is the origin of our internally generated temptations. Our fallen flesh is a foe. We inherit sinful flesh from our parents.


The sinful clamorings, promptings, propensities of our fallen flesh is the source of our internally generated temptations. It is based on what we inherited, not on what we sense through our five senses. We can think, and process thoughts, without input from our five senses. Our fallen flesh generates and communicates to our conscious mind unholy thoughts and feelings. These unholy thoughts and feelings are the internal foes (temptations) we must recognize and resist. Such internally produced thoughts and feelings happen without input from our five senses, that is, they would come into mind with or without the existence of the five senses.


Yes, Jesus was also tempted from within by His sinful flesh. And these internally generated temptations were not dependent upon input from or interaction with His five senses, which, of course, is academic because He possessed all of His senses.

1SM 122
If we would labor to repress sinful thoughts and feelings, giving them no expression in words or actions, Satan would be defeated; for he could not prepare his specious temptations to meet the case. {1SM 122.4}

MB 15
Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is emptied of self, of pride, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul. {MB 15.1}

JB: The difference is whether the spirit of the Lord is the source and governor of the thoughts in regards to the input perceived through the senses, or whether we have made the senses themselves the governor of the thoughts.

MM: What is the origin of our thoughts and feelings? In light of the two quotes I posted above (in my last post) it seems clear that our flesh, among other faculties, is capable of producing unholy thoughts and feelings, which, if we resist, do not constitute sinning.

You cannot resist that which you trust or have put your faith in. The source must first be discredited by removing faith from it and rejecting it as source, and placing faith in God, making him the source.

To seek to repress while living by the flesh is failure.

Please consider carefully what I have said before:

1. Sin, as a concept, will never be eliminated. Sin is an eternal truth. Sins, as thoughts, words, and deeds, will be eliminated with sinners in the lake of fire.

Let's make this really simple. "Sin will be no more." That's correct, isn't it?

This quote is referring to the sins committed by sinners, not to sin. That makes it simple, right?

Huh? The quote is referring to "sin," which is why it says "sin." The point is that sin will cease to exist.

Really, MM, I don't know why you are having such difficulty with this. I think even a child could understand what it means to say that sin will cease to exist.

Suppose we said instead, "Lying will exist no more." Would you understand this? Or would you say, "This is wrong! Lying will exist forever, because the concept of lying is eternal. Lies will no longer exist." If someone said, "Murder will no longer exist" you would say, "Wrong! Murders will no long exist, but the concept of murder will exist forever, therefore murder is eternal."

Honesly, I don't know what the point of this wordsmithing is. That sin will "be no more" is clear and easy to understand. There is no need to improve on what Sister White wrote here, IMO.

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2. The punishment and destruction of sins and sinners will occur when God rains down (1) fire upon sinners at the end of time. The glory of God is also a consuming (2) fire. It causes sinners and rubbish to catch on fire and burn up. Exactly what role these two different sources of fire will play in the punishment and destruction and elimination of sins and sinners in the lake of fire is not clear to me.

This punishment or destruction is very minor in the process of what causes sin to be no more. To think this is the primary reason sin will be no more is to not understand the fundamental issues involved.

MM:Okay, but what causes sins and sinners to be no more? It is the glory of God? Or, is it the fire that He rains down upon sinners and the rubbish of the earth?

DA 764 explains this.



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3. We inherit the sinful traits and tendencies of our parents, and their parents, dating all the way back to Adam and Eve. These "internal foes" tempt us from within to express our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful way.

I think this is quite well put, except I'm not sure if "internal foes" applies.

MM:Internal foes is the origin of our internally generated temptations. Our fallen flesh is a foe. We inherit sinful flesh from our parents.

I'm not sure this is accurate, at least in terms of how EGW uses the phrase "internal foes." I'm pretty sure this is incorrect (according to her usage), although I'm not positive. I think "internal foes," as she uses the phrase, refers to "foes" that we have developed through sinning (which one could combine with our fallen nature, which is to say, the union of our fallen nature and our having sinned is what constitutes our "internal foes"), but not exclusively to our fallen nature.

I don't have time to research this right now, and probably won't for some time, but you could take a look at this, and I think you will find that EGW never applies "internal foes" to Christ.

However, I agreed with the overall point you were making, and I thought you put it quite well (with this small reservation).

Quote:
It is fallen flesh that tempts us from within to sin. The avenues of the soul (five senses) is not the flesh. The mind is not the flesh. If we were born with none of the five senses, our fallen nature would still be able to tempt us from within.

This makes no sense to me. Tempt us how? Without senses, there is no information to process, and hence nothing to tempt us by or with.

MM:The sinful clamorings, promptings, propensities of our fallen flesh is the source of our internally generated temptations. It is based on what we inherited, not on what we sense through our five senses.

What we inherit, which promts us, is related to our senses. What would be an example of some temptation which does not involve our senses?

MM:We can think, and process thoughts, without input from our five senses. Our fallen flesh generates and communicates to our conscious mind unholy thoughts and feelings. These unholy thoughts and feelings are the internal foes (temptations) we must recognize and resist. Such internally produced thoughts and feelings happen without input from our five senses, that is, they would come into mind with or without the existence of the five senses.

Give some example of this please.

Quote:
Even if Satan were dead and gone, our sinful flesh would continue to tempt us.

This is true. This is also true of Christ (i.e., that He was not only tempted by Satan, but by His flesh as well).

MM:Yes, Jesus was also tempted from within by His sinful flesh. And these internally generated temptations were not dependent upon input from or interaction with His five senses, which, of course, is academic because He possessed all of His senses.

I agree with the first part here (of course, since I said it), but what would be an example of the second? (i.e., how was Christ tempted in some way which did not involve His senses).

1SM 122
If we would labor to repress sinful thoughts and feelings, giving them no expression in words or actions, Satan would be defeated; for he could not prepare his specious temptations to meet the case. {1SM 122.4}

MB 15
Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is emptied of self, of pride, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul. {MB 15.1}

He would still have the ability to imagine, which is interwoven with our senses, so you would have to remove his ability to imagine as well. If you take a man, and remove his ability to imagine, and remove his memories, you don't really have a man left, do you?

"The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Is it correct to conclude you believe it is the glory of God that destroys sinners in the lake of fire? Is this the "fire" that God rains down upon sinners at the end of time?


An unholy thought or feeling. An unholy appetite or passion clamoring for sinful expression. Jesus was tempted from within in these ways. He "felt" and "realized the strength" of the internal "temptations" produced by His fallen human nature. All this can happen in a room devoid of anything that would involve our senses. It happens in the mind.

7A 450
He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. (7A 450)

3SM 132
He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. (3SM 132)

MM: Okay, but what causes sins and sinners to be no more? It is the glory of God? Or, is it the fire that He rains down upon sinners and the rubbish of the earth?

TE: DA 764 explains this.

"The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Is it correct to conclude you believe it is the glory of God that destroys sinners in the lake of fire?

No, I don't think that's what she's saying here in DA 764. She quotes Malachi and other passages dealing with the lake of fire and the destruction of the wicked, and then wrote the paragraph I cited. It seems to me the logical understanding is that she is explaining the meaning of the Scriptures she just quoted.

Is this the "fire" that God rains down upon sinners at the end of time?

It's hard to answer that yes or no. I think Revelation is giving us a broad picture as to what will happen, and must be interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture (which is true of Revelation in general). If you consider DA 108, for example, she says there that the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. It's difficult to see this as describing literal fire, since literal fire does not give live to the righteous. If one sees God's glory as like fire, then everything fits into place. God describes His glory in terms of something that we humans can understand. It seems to me it would be pretty short-sided to conclude that because God describes His glory as fire that we would think it is literal fire. Fire is simply the closes thing we know to it that can be used to describe it.

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MM: The sinful clamorings, promptings, propensities of our fallen flesh is the source of our internally generated temptations. It is based on what we inherited, not on what we sense through our five senses.

TE: What we inherit, which promts us, is related to our senses. What would be an example of some temptation which does not involve our senses?

MM:An unholy thought or feeling.

Thought about what? "Feeling" suggests the use of our senses.

An unholy appetite or passion clamoring for sinful expression. Jesus was tempted from within in these ways. He "felt" and "realized the strength" of the internal "temptations" produced by His fallen human nature. All this can happen in a room devoid of anything that would involve our senses. It happens in the mind.

I still don't see any example here. I asked for an example of a temptation, and you say an "unholy thought or feeling." Like what? If you look at the temptations in the wilderness, they were to make a stone into bread, to jump off a high place, to worship Satan in order to gain a kingdom Satan showed him. These are all things which involve the senses.

7A 450
He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. (7A 450)

3SM 132
He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. (3SM 132)

Appetite as to do with our senses. All of our temptations do. These "lusts" or desires are desires for sensual things (that is, things we sense)

Here is the context of DA 764:


It is difficult to conclude other than what she wrote: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.” She clearly states – “His very presence … will destroy them.” The glory of His presence is what causes them and the rubbish of earth to burn up and turn into ashes.

“The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire. With authority He commanded, "Take these things hence." (DA 590) “The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed.” (DA 600)

It is hard to read the following passages and conclude that the consuming fire of the glory of God is a whole lot different than fire as know it. Yes, there is a difference, but the results are the same, namely, people and things burn up, they turn into ashes - just like fire as know it.