The following passages describe how the glory of God has destroyed sinners in the past. In most cases it involved fire that burned them up like rubbish. The passages also describe how the brightness of Jesus and the glory of God will destroy sinners at the second advent of Christ. The context also implies it will involve fire that will consume them like rubbish.


Again, it is like fire as we know it. It causes sinners to burst into flames and turn into ashes. The fact it also gives life to the glorified saints most likely has to do with their material, physical difference. That is, glorified bodies do not burst into flames in the presence of God’s glory. They are made of flame proof material. Whereas, sinful bodies are highly combustible. That’s why not even Jesus could, while abiding in sinful flesh, appear in the unveiled presence of God.

All temptations begin as an unholy thought and feeling. Internally generated temptations originate with our fallen flesh. In other words, our sinful nature produces thoughts and feelings from within, independent of what is happening outside of us.


True, but you are referring to temptations that originated outside of Jesus. I am referring to temptations that originate within Jesus. Yes, temptations that originate outside of us are channeled through the faculties of our mind and body. They also join forces with our internal source of temptation, but when temptations originate within us it bypasses certain faculties and goes directly to our mind and imagination. Afterwards it affects us physically and emotionally, which involves whatever senses we possess.


True, but fallen flesh produces images we see and feel with our minds eye. People devoid of the sense of sight can still “see” things in their mind. Sinful flesh comes encoded with sights and sounds and smells and feelings related to the experiences of parents and their parents dating back to Adam.

We relive, as it were, their memories every time we are tempted from within. Such memories do not require the normal senses in order to feel their affect. The nature of the temptation is related to the specific defect we inherited. Some defects are physical, some are emotional.

For example, some people inherit weaknesses that make them predisposed to alcoholism. They imagine themselves needing a drink, and they are tempted from within with thoughts and feelings related to drinking.

Others inherit a particularly impatient spirit, and they are tempted from within to be impatient. Their minds are full of thoughts and feelings of what they are capable of doing. Such thoughts and feelings are, at least initially, only temptations.

Jesus had to resist similar temptations. He inherited the same sinful flesh we do. His fallen nature tempted Him from within in the same way it tempts us. In other words, unholy thoughts and feelings popped into His mind, temptations which were related to His ancestor's defects and weaknesses. Visions of sinning tempted Him from within. He resisted them like a born again believer. Temptations do not contaminate the character; only sinning does.

All our thoughts are generated in the mind. The body cannot communicate thoughts, but thoughts in the mind can be provoked by or through the senses. The kind of thoughts that are provoked depends on what has been established by faith to be the trusted source. If the spirit is our source then the thoughts will be according to spirit. If the flesh is the source then the thoughts will bring forth sin.

Thoughts communicated to us from outside us are not ours until we make them ours or reject them. That too is dependent on the position of our faith. We will respond according to our source.

I think that it needs to be realized that our senses are much deeper than skin deep. For example feeling permeates our whole being, and it involves a lot more than just ‘contact’.
But not only should our senses not be trusted; but also our knowledge, values and past judgment which we attained when our faith was in the flesh, need to be counted but dung (not trusted).

JB: All our thoughts are generated in the mind.

MM: I believe we become aware of our innocent and legitimate needs in our mind. They begin in the body (which includes the brain) as electric impulses and become conscious thoughts and feelings in the mind. The higher powers of the mind include reason and conscience.

"But men’s natural appetites have been perverted by indulgence. Through unholy gratification they have become “fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” (14 MR 294, 295)

"You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. (3T 84)

"The brain nerves that connect with the whole system are the medium through which heaven communicates with man and affects the inmost life. Whatever hinders the circulation of the electric current in the nervous system, thus weakening the vital powers and lessening mental susceptibility, makes it more difficult to arouse the moral nature. {Ed 209.2}

"If we would not commit sin, we must shun its very beginnings. Every emotion and desire must be held in subjection to reason and conscience. Every unholy thought must be instantly repelled. To your closet, followers of Christ. Pray in faith and with all the heart. Satan is watching to ensnare your feet. You must have help from above if you would escape his devices.-- 5T 177

MM, you quoted this:



then you say



Surely, you can see the problem here, can't you? Fire, as we know it, cannot impart life to the wicked. Also we see (from your quote!) that the "glory of God" destroys sin, so, unless you understand that the "glory of God" is "fire as we know it," there's a contradiction. Unless you mean by "like fire as we know it" what I was saying, which is that fire, as we know it, is the closest thing that we know of to describe the glory of God.

Also, DA 764 should be kept in mind.

MM, in regards to what I asked for an example regarding, it was your assertion that we could be tempted by something which did not involve our senses. It had nothing to do with temptations being provoked by stimuli outside of ourselves. Please read the posts carefully. I gave specific examples which involve the imagination and memories, so there was no point in your giving the same examples I was giving.

You still have not provided an example of what I was talking about, however, which is of a temptation which does not involve our senses.

It looks like your last post, MM, above (just before mine) is agreeing with what John wrote. I think John has been expressing the idea well.

I attempted, above, to address this problem. Here's what I posted:

Again, it is like fire as we know it. 1) It causes sinners to burst into flames and turn into ashes. 2) The fact it also gives life to the glorified saints most likely has to do with their material, physical difference. That is, glorified bodies do not burst into flames in the presence of God’s glory. They are made of flame proof material. 3) Whereas, sinful bodies are highly combustible. 4) That’s why not even Jesus could, while abiding in sinful flesh, appear in the unveiled presence of God.


Amen!

I tried to. Here, I'll rephrase it. Internal temptations originate within us. If we were devoid of all senses, our fallen flesh would still be able to tempt us. Such temptations are related to the traits and tendencies we inherit. The sinful propensities we inherit produce unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of mental images. By "feelings" I'm am referring to emotions, not to touch, which is an outside stimuli.

Our imagination is not dependent upon the input of outside stimuli affecting our five senses. Examples of internally generated temptations are numerous. You name it. Our fallen flesh is not without its resources. It can tempt us from within in all points common to man. Evil angels can also cause us to "see" and feel mental images in our minds eye.


I didn't mean to. I believe temptations originate in one of two places: 1) Internally, and 2) Externally. We become aware of them in our mind. They do not, however, originate in the mind. In other words, the faculties of the mind do not tempt us to sin. The mind is simply where we become consciously aware of the fact we are being tempted. I thought John was saying temptations originate in the mind.

John wrote this:



This makes sense to me.

You say the mind becomes aware of temptation, but every facet of temptation must take place in the mind, as temptation has to do with wanting to do something you know to be wrong, a purely mental function.

Regarding temptations being internal or external, in either case the senses come into play, as all information we process involves our senses. For example, you speak of the mind's eye. That's a reference to the sense of sight.

1. The SOP describes the body and mind communicating back and forth. The body communicates innocent and legitimate needs, our appetites and passions, in the form of electrical impulses.

2. The flesh perverts them into unholy needs. For example, "I'm hungry" becomes, "Eat this or that" without reference to truth or temperance.

3. The mind converts these encoded electrical impulses into conscious thoughts and feelings. Temptations do not originate in the mind. We simply become aware of them in the mind. Again, the mind does not tempt us to sin.

4. The "mind's eye" I referred to is not related to the sense of sight. Blind people are capable of "seeing" images in their mind.

5. The consuming fire of God's glory is similar to fire as we know it. It causes sinners to burst into flames and turn into ashes. Sinful bodies are highly combustible.

6. The fact it also gives life to the glorified saints most likely has to do with their material, physical difference. That is, glorified bodies do not burst into flames in the presence of God’s glory. They are made of flame proof material.

7. That’s why not even Jesus, while abiding in sinful flesh, could appear in the unveiled presence of God.