Tom, before I address your comments in response to my post, please take a minute to address my questions. Thank you. Here it is again:



Caused by Satan or caused by the Roman Military? I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Were these angels, cited above in bold text, evil or holy angels? No doubt you believe they were holy angels. And why not? Is it wrong for holy angels to destroy humans when God commands it? Should we be shocked or horrified if God punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time?

TE: Regarding your comments on the GC quote, no, I don't agree, which should be obvious.

MM: Tom, please point out where my comments fail to grasp what she wrote in the GC. Thank you.

I answered this in my post. My point is that you cannot look at just one thing that was written, so even asking the question of where your comments fail to grasp what she wrote in the GC is not a proper question, IMO. Even elsewhere in the GC itself she writes things which should be taken into account in interpreting what she wrote in the part you quoted (e.g. GC 541-543 has important principles to bear in mind, where it speaks of how God would make the lost happy, if He could).

Quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35.3)

TE: It turns out their destruction was caused by Satan, not by God!


MM:Caused by Satan or caused by the Roman Military?

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

MM:I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

Nothing can happen that God does not permit. It would be a horrendous mistake to infer from this that the things which God permits are His will.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Were these angels, cited above in bold text, evil or holy angels? No doubt you believe they were holy angels. And why not? Is it wrong for holy angels to destroy humans when God commands it? Should we be shocked or horrified if God punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time?

I addressed this at length in the post I wrote as a response to your post.

JB: The flesh warring against the spirit has to do with the fact that it has been made the source, and hence it is in the place where the spirit ought to be.

MM: The flesh always wars against the Spirit and mind of the new man. It was thus with Jesus. His flesh warred against Him, too. It doesn' mean we are sinning or relying on the wrong source. Here is how Sister White describes it:


JB: I agree that we will receive a body in harmony with the spirit.

MM: How will this new body change our life? What will be different about it as compared to our old body?

TE: I answered this in my post.

MM: Okay. But it doesn't address the points I raised. Whatever.

TE: It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

MM: Are you saying Satan, and not the Romans, killed the Jews?

TE: It would be a horrendous mistake to infer from this that the things which God permits are His will.

MM: Why, then, does He permit it?

TE: I addressed this at length in the post I wrote as a response to your post.

MM: I was unable to determine from it if you believe the paragraph quoted above is referring to holy angels or evil angels. Again, did God command holy angels to destroy sinners?

TE: Regarding your comments on the GC quote, no, I don't agree, which should be obvious.

MM: Tom, please point out where my comments fail to grasp what she wrote in the GC. Thank you.

I answered this in my post. My point is that you cannot look at just one thing that was written, so even asking the question of where your comments fail to grasp what she wrote in the GC is not a proper question, IMO. Even elsewhere in the GC itself she writes things which should be taken into account in interpreting what she wrote in the part you quoted (e.g. GC 541-543 has important principles to bear in mind, where it speaks of how God would make the lost happy, if He could).

Quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35.3)

TE: It turns out their destruction was caused by Satan, not by God!

MM:Caused by Satan or caused by the Roman Military?

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

MM:I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

Nothing can happen that God does not permit. It would be a horrendous mistake to infer from this that the things which God permits are His will.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Were these angels, cited above in bold text, evil or holy angels? No doubt you believe they were holy angels. And why not? Is it wrong for holy angels to destroy humans when God commands it? Should we be shocked or horrified if God punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time?

I addressed this at length in the post I wrote as a response to your post.

TE: I answered this in my post.

MM: Okay. But it doesn't address the points I raised. Whatever.

It does. I went into a lot of detail addressing this. I discussed GC 614, the surrounding paragraphs, GC chapter 1, and a lot of other things, to specifically address the points you raised.

TE: It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.

MM: Are you saying Satan, and not the Romans, killed the Jews?

Wasn't this asked and answered? I'm sure you must have some point in this question. What is it? I quoted from Sister White, that many think that the punishments of God are due to direct decrees, and it is thus that Satan seeks to hid his own work.

TE: It would be a horrendous mistake to infer from this that the things which God permits are His will.

MM: Why, then, does He permit it?

Because it was not His intention to create automatons.

TE: I addressed this at length in the post I wrote as a response to your post.

MM: I was unable to determine from it if you believe the paragraph quoted above is referring to holy angels or evil angels. Again, did God command holy angels to destroy sinners?

I addressed this in post #92050. This entire post was written for the purpose of answering your question.

I wrote an entire post to answer this question of yours, and the others regarding GC 614. Rather than reasking the same questions that prompted my writing the post in the first place, why not discuss the post I wrote to address your questions?

TE: It does. I went into a lot of detail addressing this. I discussed GC 614, the surrounding paragraphs, GC chapter 1, and a lot of other things, to specifically address the points you raised.

MM: I was referring to the long GC quote and my accompanying comments. You ignored it and posted DA 764 instead with the assumption the DA quote interprets the GC quote. Here are my comments again. Please, Tom, show me why my comments below are wrong. Thank you.


TE: Because it was not His intention to create automatons.

MM: Which is why He commanded angels to destroy sinners. What? If it wasn't His will, then whose was it?

TE: I addressed this in post #92050. This entire post was written for the purpose of answering your question.


MM: Shall I assume, then, that you do not believe the angels referred to in GC 614 are the ones who actually destroyed the sinners? that they merely stepped aside and allowed the evil angels to do it? Here is the quote again:



You seem to be saying that the phrase - "exercised by holy angels" - in the quote above means allowing evil angels to do it. Right? Why would she compare the destruction caused by holy angels when God commands with the destruction caused by evil angels when He permits if the phrase - "exercised by holy angels" - actually means caused by evil angels?

TE: No one will suffer more than God during the judgment ...

MM: Please support this assertion with quotes. Thank you.

This is obvious. God is love. Love suffers when the object of love is in pain. No one loves as much as God, therefore no one suffers as much as He does.

Just imagine how painful it would be to lose one of your children for eternity, and multiply that by a billion for intensity, and billions more each child, and that's a small idea as to the immensity of God's suffering.

TE: In short, the angels are longing for justice. What this means is expalined in detail in GC, chapter 1.

MM: Do you mean to say the holy angels are merely clamoring for the sinners to see the truth so that they can suffer in proportion to their sinfulness?

No. Justice has to do with things being set right. Holy angels want things to be set right. They want a universe without evil, or injustice, or sin.

TE: Where it appears we differ is that you believe that God needs to add something external or artificial to cause the suffering of those who reject Him (such as by supernatually keeping them alive while He burns them with fire), whereas I believe the suffering comes automatically, simply by way of their being in the presence of God and having things revealed to them.

MM: To tell you the truth, I do not know precisely how it will play out, how the fire works, how God manages the whole thing.

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Whether this fire is the glory of God or literal fire managed supernaturally by God or both, it doesn't change the fact that their physical and mental suffering is real and ultimately destructive. On this I suspect we can both agree.

It makes a difference as to whether their suffering is caused by God, or the result of their sin. It's the difference between whether Jesus saves us from what God will do to us if we don't do what He says, or saves us from suffering the inevitable results of sin. It impacts how we view God, and how we view His purpose.



MM:I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

Nothing can happen that God does not permit. It would be a horrendous mistake to infer from this that the things which God permits are His will.



TE: It does. I went into a lot of detail addressing this. I discussed GC 614, the surrounding paragraphs, GC chapter 1, and a lot of other things, to specifically address the points you raised.

MM: I was referring to the long GC quote and my accompanying comments. You ignored it and posted DA 764 instead with the assumption the DA quote interprets the GC quote. Here are my comments again. Please, Tom, show me why my comments below are wrong. Thank you.

You already asked this several times, and I already answered it, at least twice.(see posts #92048, #92057)

TE: Because it was not His intention to create automatons.

MM: Which is why He commanded angels to destroy sinners. What? If it wasn't His will, then whose was it?

You're jumping around too much, here, MM. Here's the original context:



Then you asked, "MM: Why, then, does He permit it?" to which I answered, "Because it was not His intention to create automatons." In short, God permits evil to occur because evil is a choice made by the beings He created with free will. It is not God's will that evil should happen, ever. God never intended for evil to occur. What God's will is can be seen in the person of Jesus Christ, who "went about doing good." (Acts 10:38)

Regarding GC 614, I wrote a long post about that(#92050). You are taking a single sentence of EGW's without regard either to its context, or things she wrote elsewhere (e.g. "All that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son" Where did Jesus Christ ever have an angel or angels destroy someone? Or, better yet, where was Christ in any way involved with the destruction of any person?) By taking a sentence here or there, one can "prove" anything. For example, people who want to prove that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall use this technique by quoting from the Baker letter.

The most detailed description we have of how God, or His angels, destroy is provided in the first chapter of this same book, "The Great Controversy." God, and His angels, destroy by withdrawing.



Notice how this brings out that God will show He is indeed a living God. It brings out how the wicked will called upon to me long deferred vengeance. How does this take place? "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy."

In Scripture we read the following:



If you look at verse 2, it appears that the destruction to take place is something caused by the holy angels. But both Scripture and EGW make it clear that Satan causes the destruction, and that the holy angels simply release the winds of strife. The point here is that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits.

The command by God to the Holy Angels is "Release!". This is how the holy angels destroy.

The angels do not act out of harmony with the character of God as revealed by Christ. When Christ was urged to destroy, by calling fire from heaven, He replied, "You know not of what spirit you are." The spirit of Christ is not to destroy, but to restore. Christ is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer.

How do you explain the following inspired insight:

In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}


Justice? What does demanding double pain and punishment have to do with justice? Whatever happened to an eye for an eye?


God is the one who resurrects them, who gives them life, right? He is the one who displays their sins in panoramic view without censorship, without protection, right? He is the one who rains fire down upon them, right? He is the one who exposes them to His unveiled glory, right? So how can you say God just sits back and weeps while they reap the natural consequences of sinning?


It is God's will therefore to permit evil to happen, is it not?


So, you believe the following insight should be interpreted to mean holy angels withdrew their protection and allowed evil angels to work destruction, is that what you're saying? How is that any better than believing holy angels did it? It reminds me of the mafia - Jesus is the Godfather and Satan is the hit man.

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

MM:How do you explain the following inspired insight:

In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}

My reply:

This is just quoting Prov. 1:26. Why not just quote the Scripture? Why quote Ellen White quoting Scripture?

To answer your question, inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits. For example, "God killed Saul."

The explanation of the principle I am aware of is the first chapter of "The Great Controversy" which we find many phrases speaking of God's wrath, God's retribution, and so forth, punctuated by the following:



What we should bear in mind is that Satan is constantly seeking to misrepresent God's character.



In order to rightly interpret inspired statements, we need to keep these facts in mind.

The truth about God's character was revealed in Jesus Christ.



Whatever inspired statements we are considering must conform to these principles. Specifically, given that all that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, our interpretations must be in harmony with what Christ revealed in His life during His incarnation.