Yes, this helps explain it, but it doesn't account for everything. The fact blind people can see without sight is considered unexplainable. Can you explain how the prophets were able to see things they could not completely understand or describe?


To me, it more makes sense to say God prevented the fire from burning up the Hebrews. But even if we conclude God prevented their bodies from burning up, it still goes to show that God can regulate the effects of fire upon flesh. That's my point.


What you say about the mental anguish sinners will experience is true. Jesus felt it. Even the 144,000 will feel it during the investigative judgment of the living. But it doesn't kill them. There is no way of proving sinners would still burn up in the presence of God's glory even if their bodies were flameproof. It will never happen. We only have the facts: 1) The flesh of sinners cannot abide in the presence of God's unveiled glory, and 2) sinners will burn up and turn into ashes in the lake of fire.


He inherited the same sinful flesh body we do. It was just as combustible.

I Googled it. Here's a link where a blind-from-birth person describes her (or his?) dreams:

http://www.afb.org/message_board_replies.asp?TopicID=2440&FolderID=3

This quote intrigued me, so I looked up the context. Here's what I found:

Imagine, if possible, the nature and degree of Christ's suffering. This suffering in humanity was to prevent the outpouring of the wrath of God upon those for whom Christ died. Yea; for the church this great sacrifice will be efficacious throughout eternity. Can we compute the amount of her transgressions in figures?--Impossible! Then who can approach to a conception of what Christ endured when standing as surety for his church, in the solemn hour of atonement, when he yielded up his life as a sacrificial offering? Never, never can it be that God will again so manifest his holiness, his spotless purity; the sin that sprung up in heaven and its inconceivably heinous character; his utter hatred of sin, his solemn purpose to punish it, and that in the only one who could bear the strokes in behalf of the sinner, and because of his innocence would not be consumed. {HM, November 1, 1897 par. 5}

1. "This suffering in humanity was to prevent the outpouring of the wrath of God upon those for whom Christ died." This insight refutes the idea that Jesus did not die to save us from the wrath of God.

2. "... his solemn purpose to punish [sin] ..." How does God punish sin?

3. "... because of his innocence would not be consumed ..." What was it about Jesus that would not be consumed by the strokes of God's wrath which punishes sin?

1. "This suffering in humanity was to prevent the outpouring of the wrath of God upon those for whom Christ died." This insight refutes the idea that Jesus did not die to save us from the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is His delivering up the ones who are rebelling against him to the result of their choice. For example:









One can see in the paragraphs above references to God's wrath, and retributive judgment. How does this take place? By an act of God directly taking action against the object of His wrath?



No! God gives them up. This is His wrath. There is tons of evidence regarding this in Scripture as well. Just one example:



2. "... his solemn purpose to punish [sin] ..." How does God punish sin?

Addressed above.

3. "... because of his innocence would not be consumed ..." What was it about Jesus that would not be consumed by the strokes of God's wrath which punishes sin?

His mind (conscience, sense of being, relationship to God, etc.).

Regarding the article on the blind person's dreams, she is using the words "see" and "look like," in a way that's a bit misleading. She obviously cannot literally see these things.

I can give an analogy. In sign language, deaf people, in communicating a conversation they have with someone, use the sign for "speak" or "say." IOW, they will say something like, "I said blah, blah, blah to so and so." But they don't literally speak; they sign. The word "say," has to do with communication. The form of communication (signing as opposed to speaking with the voice) doesn't matter. It's an idiom.

The blind person has no idea what red looks like. But she has made an association of the word "red," with certain things, like fire, passion, and so forth, the word has meaning to her, even though she couldn't be able to pick out from a bunch of paints, for example, which was the red one.

Have you ever read any of Hellen Keller's works? Now she did have some sight and hearing while she was an infant, so that may have had a little bit of an impact on her, but I have found her use of language to be incredible. She uses many colorful images (no pun intended) for her visual descriptions, and descriptions of what things sound like. She must have been exceedingly intelligent. I find it amazing that a deaf-blind person could describe things so vividly, that involve sight and hearing.

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting subject.

The part about a sense of order being built in the "visual" cortex was especially fascinating. It's not too surprising, however, as I'm aware of research that came to a similar conclusion regarding language.

Research was done regarding stroke victims who knew sign language, and it was determined that if the right side of the brain was damaged, the ability to communicate in language was not impaired, although spacial references were all out of whack. Left-brained victims, OTOH, knew where things were, and could accurately represent visual content, but couldn't communicate in sign (as a language).

We have language hard-wired into us, which isn't dependent upon hearing, although that's the normal way. If the sense of hearing is absent, the language component is taken advantage of by the sense of sight. (if that's absent, then tactile will work as well, as deaf-blind people demonstrate).

Similarly the "visual" cortex can be taken advantage of tactilely, something which doesn't surprise me, but not something I had thought about until reading the article you referenced.

Tom, yeah, I found it interesting, too. But it doesn't address the point I was raising regarding inheriting mental images from our ancestors. I think I need to back off that idea. It appears we cannot mentally visualize things we haven't experienced through the normal senses.

However, I still maintain that our body produces biochemical messages and electrical impulses which trigger conscious thoughts and feelings. As such, our fallen flesh tempts us from within. Adam's flesh did not tempt him from within to indulge perverted appetites and passions until after he sinned. When Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and flesh nature all of our internally generated thoughts and feelings will be in harmony with God's will.

Also, your thoughts concerning the wrath of God seem to overlook the glory of God being a consuming fire, a fire that not only causes sinners to burn and turn into ashes it also causes the rubbish of the earth to burn up and turn into ashes. The glory of God is the active agent in the punishment and destruction of sinners and all traces of sin. Yes, God is preventing this from happening now, but there is more to it than merely ceasing to prevent it from happening.

PS - Tom, did you by chance overlook the post at the top of this page?

Responding to top of page post.

Yes, this helps explain it, but it doesn't account for everything. The fact blind people can see without sight is considered unexplainable. Can you explain how the prophets were able to see things they could not completely understand or describe?

I addressed the blind person part. What you're writing above isn't quite accurate, but I addressed it elsewhere, so I won't comment further.

Regarding the prophets, God communicated with them by way of visions and dreams. What is there to explain?

MM:To me, it more makes sense to say God prevented the fire from burning up the Hebrews.

But clearly the fire hadn't changed, since the non-worthies perished when they were cast in it.

But even if we conclude God prevented their bodies from burning up, it still goes to show that God can regulate the effects of fire upon flesh. That's my point.

God can do anything. We don't need any proof of that. What we really want to ask if things make sense.

What you say about the mental anguish sinners will experience is true. Jesus felt it. Even the 144,000 will feel it during the investigative judgment of the living. But it doesn't kill them. There is no way of proving sinners would still burn up in the presence of God's glory even if their bodies were flameproof.

There is no need to prove this. Not having flame proof bodies isn't the problem.

It will never happen. We only have the facts: 1) The flesh of sinners cannot abide in the presence of God's unveiled glory, and 2) sinners will burn up and turn into ashes in the lake of fire.

The problem is not in the flesh, but in the mind. It is the mind of sinners that cannot abide in the presence of God's unveiled glory, and we have plenty of proof for that.

I agree that sinners will burn up and turn into ashes in the lake of fire. Where we differ is in what happens.

What I believe happens is that as the wicked get ready to storm the city, they are stopped as God reveals the truth to them. He reveals the truth about Himself, and about themselves. They become conscious of every sin. I believe this is what causes their suffering, and this suffering is not something arbitrarily caused by God ("arbitrarily" here meaning "artificially" or "in a way that is not innate to sin itself". I'm saying there is no direct action on the part of God to cause the suffering of those who have rejected God, other than His simply revealing the truth to them.)

The reason some suffer more than others is that some have rejected more light, and some have sinned more.

After the wicked have been judged (which is this process of revealing the truth to them; the truth has already been revealed to everyone else during the previous investigative and executive judgments) the earth will be purified by fire, and the wicked will turn to ashes.

The scenario I understand you to believe is that God will throw fire, as we know it, down upon the wicked and supernaturally keep them alive so that they can suffer unimaginably for many hours or days.

The problems I see with this scenario is that there death here is not caused by sin, but by an arbitrary action of God. Also this process is unspeakably cruel.

The glory of God is His character. His character is what Jesus Christ revealed. There is no reason why a person should be destroyed because they are in the presence of Jesus Christ, except that sin has ruined them. This is not God's fault, as He has done everything possible to rescue them from sin, but they have refused. God is not the active agent in the death of the wicked. Sin is.

I really cannot fathom why anyone would want to take the position that it is God, rather than sin, that is responsible for death. For two reasons. One is, inspiration is clear: the wages of sin is death. We even see, in the death of Christ, how this operates.

Secondly, it is totally foreign to God's nature. God is life. The sting of death is sin.

TE: Regarding the prophets, God communicated with them by way of visions and dreams. What is there to explain?

MM: What they saw, did it require any of their five senses? If not, why not? Could a person devoid of senses see it, too?

TE: But clearly the fire hadn't changed, since the non-worthies perished when they were cast in it.

MM: Neither the fire nor the flesh changed. I would say what changed was the fact God did not prevent the fire from burning up the non-Jews.

TE: What I believe happens is that as the wicked get ready to storm the city, they are stopped as God reveals the truth to them. He reveals the truth about Himself, and about themselves. They become conscious of every sin. I believe this is what causes their suffering, and this suffering is not something arbitrarily caused by God.

MM: Here is the chronology of events in the GC:

1. At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. {GC 664.3}

MM: Satan leads the unsaved to overthrow the City of God.

2. In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. {GC 666.1}

MM: The gates are closed, and Jesus is coronated.

3. As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}

MM: The wicked are judged. But no consuming fire of God’s glory. No suffering in proportion to their sinfulness occurs at this point.

4. [Satan] sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. {GC 669.1}

MM: The glory of God’s consuming fire is veiled at this time. No consuming fire is involved at this point.

5. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

MM: Their lost condition causes them to fight among themselves. But no consuming fire of God’s glory at this point.

6. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. {GC 672.2}

MM: Finally, there is fire from God above and from the earth below.

7. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

MM: The combined fires from above and below cause sinners to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness. No effort is made to differentiate between the two sources of fire. Both cause sinners to suffer and burn up according to their sinfulness.

8. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

MM: This fire is mentioned in the context of sinners literally burning up.

9. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. {GC 674.1}

MM: This fire is mentioned in the context of God’s glory.