I believe the body produces biochemical messages and electrical impulses which trigger conscious thoughts and feelings. As such, our fallen flesh tempts us from within. Adam's flesh did not tempt him from within to indulge perverted appetites and passions until after he sinned. When Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and flesh all of our internally generated thoughts and feelings will be in harmony with God's will.

Do you agree?

TE: Regarding the prophets, God communicated with them by way of visions and dreams. What is there to explain?

MM: What they saw, did it require any of their five senses?

Sure. The same as when we dream. The senses are involved that we have.

If not, why not? Could a person devoid of senses see it, too?

No. A person devoid of senses could neither receive nor transmit communication.

TE: But clearly the fire hadn't changed, since the non-worthies perished when they were cast in it.

MM: Neither the fire nor the flesh changed. I would say what changed was the fact God did not prevent the fire from burning up the non-Jews.

TE: What I believe happens is that as the wicked get ready to storm the city, they are stopped as God reveals the truth to them. He reveals the truth about Himself, and about themselves. They become conscious of every sin. I believe this is what causes their suffering, and this suffering is not something arbitrarily caused by God.

MM: Here is the chronology of events in the GC:

1. At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. {GC 664.3}

MM: Satan leads the unsaved to overthrow the City of God.

2. In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. {GC 666.1}

MM: The gates are closed, and Jesus is coronated.

3. As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}

MM: The wicked are judged. But no consuming fire of God’s glory. No suffering in proportion to their sinfulness occurs at this point.

4. [Satan] sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. {GC 669.1}

MM: The glory of God’s consuming fire is veiled at this time. No consuming fire is involved at this point.

5. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

MM: Their lost condition causes them to fight among themselves. But no consuming fire of God’s glory at this point.

6. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. {GC 672.2}

MM: Finally, there is fire from God above and from the earth below.

7. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

MM: The combined fires from above and below cause sinners to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness. No effort is made to differentiate between the two sources of fire. Both cause sinners to suffer and burn up according to their sinfulness.

8. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

MM: This fire is mentioned in the context of sinners literally burning up.

9. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. {GC 674.1}

MM: This fire is mentioned in the context of God’s glory.

Here is the chronology is DA 764

1."Then the end will come."

TE:The end comes.

2."Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off."

TE:The destruction of the wicked is about to be described.

3.Mal.4:1, Ezek. 38:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16 quoted.

TE:Familiar scripture texts dealing with the destruction of the wicked are quoted.

4."This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God."

TE:She is explaining that the destruction of the wicked is not due to an action on God's part, but on their own.

5."The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown."

TE:The principle is one of natural consequence, reaping what has been sown.

6."God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

TE:Further description of how the wicked destroy themselves. They "separate from God" in whom alone is life.

7."(T)hey receive the results of their own choice."

TE:Further description of the natural consequence.

8."Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire."

TE:Further description of the natural consequence.

9."At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin."

TE:The natural consequence process would not have been understood had it taken place immediately when Satan sinned. It would have been misunderstood as an action of God.

10."A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe."

TE:This would have been the result of the natural process not being understood.

There's something else I want to point out, but this is already long, so I'll do it in a separate post.

Tom

Here is Malachi 4:1



Here is DA 764



I doubt anyone reading Malachi 4:1 would expect DA 764 to be a description of that text, but it is.

Similarly in GC chapter 1 we read things like the following:



This agrees, in tenor, with Scripture where the destruction of Jerusalem is depicted as something God would accomplish, in wrath, for retribution. Then we read the following shocker:



It turns out their destruction was caused by Satan, not by God!

What I'm trying to demonstrate here is that there is often more to what is going on than what immediately meets the eye. I'm sure that without the above quote (and similar ones), it would be automatically assumed that the destruction of Jerusalem was God's doing. But it wasn't. It was Satan's. In spite of all the "wrath" and "retribution" language previous.

In trying to understand what is going on in the judgment, it is not sufficient to simply chronologically list a single vision. There are dozens of depictions of the judgment of the wicked, not just the one in GC by Ellen White. She has a description in DA 764. Many Bible writers speak to the topic. To come to a right view, we need to compare all the descriptions we have, and also take into account the central precept to rightly interpret Scripture, which is Calvary.

Any interpretation we have of the judgment (or any other doctrine) must be in harmony with the revelation we have of God's love and character revealed in Jesus Christ.

I think that the concepts of a sinless body or sinful body are amiss.

While there are the established habits of thought and previously indulged thoughts, attitudes and actions which are recorded in the “paths” for easy access (something like ‘cache’) which naturally respond or suggest activity, and we call that the flesh. These are according to preset dispositions which we have established by indulging thought or practice.

The point is that making a clean slate of the flesh, would not in anyway remove temptation as long as the senses are maintained as source. That is: if one lives by the flesh, (one’s physical senses, or lower nature) whether it had been subject to sinful thoughts and actions or whether it had never been subject to sinful thoughts and actions, will result in sin. To live by the spirit, on the other hand, whether the flesh is “fallen or not” will yield the fruit of righteousness.

If we look at the scripture record, we see that Eve consulted her “interests of the mind”, her appetite (taste) and her eyes; and made them the source for the governing decision. If these had been distrusted, and not allowed authority, but only the spirit of God held as trusted source for thought and action, the results would have been different.



So while our bodies have been subject to sinful thoughts and actions, and thus bear record of them. The answer has to do with where faith is placed and what is authorized to be the source of our decision making. In other words, if we think of the flesh as temptation it is only because we listen to it, and that would be the case whether it had been subject to sinful thoughts and actions or not.

I agree that we will receive a body in harmony with the spirit.

Tom, before jump to a different chronology of last day events, it would be nice to examine the one I quoted below. Do you agree with my comments below based on the GC account?

Caused by Satan or caused by the Roman Military? I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Were these angels, cited above, evil or holy angels? No doubt you believe they were holy angels. And why not? Is it wrong for holy angels to destroy humans when God commands it? Should we be shocked or horrified if God punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time?

JB: The point is that making a clean slate of the flesh, would not in anyway remove temptation as long as the senses are maintained as source.

MM: It would eliminate internally generated temptations. Our flesh would no longer war against us or the Spirit of God. Our appetites and passions would be naturally in harmony with the will of God. Eve's thought processes were not influenced by a nature at war with God and man. She was perfect from head to toe.

JB: I agree that we will receive a body in harmony with the spirit.

MM: In what way will it make a difference?

Regarding your comments on the GC quote, no, I don't agree, which should be obvious. I presented my account of what I think will happen in the end. I formed that opinion by taking into account all of the sources available, that I am aware of, on the subject. I do not believe it is possible to just look at one source and come up with the right view.

I'm not saying my view is right, either. It's just the best I have been able to come up with, taking everything into account.

The reason I present the DA passage is that whatever view we have of the GC one has to match what DA says. I believe I've come up with an explanation that does that. I'm not seeing how your interpretation can be harmonized with DA 764 (nor with what we know to be true of God's character).

Quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35.3)

TE: It turns out their destruction was caused by Satan, not by God!

Caused by Satan or caused by the Roman Military? I'm sure evil angels were actively inspiring Jews and Romans alike, but it was the Romans who defeated the Jews and slaughtered them. What role did God play? He permitted it. Nothing of the like would have happened had God not permitted it, right?

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Were these angels, cited above, evil or holy angels? No doubt you believe they were holy angels. And why not? Is it wrong for holy angels to destroy humans when God commands it? Should we be shocked or horrified if God punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time?

Here's the paragraph immediately before the one you cited.



This says:
a)The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
b)Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.
c)The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
d)Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
e)Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
f)s the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose.
g)The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

She writes a bit later:



Now if the plagues are similar in character, then the same principles should be manifest in both. We see from her description that the plagues upon the wicked at the end of time come about because God withdraws His Spirit. Here's another statement which brings this out:



What is it that God commands the holy angels to do? To destroy? No, to release. They release their control, and destruction takes place.

Satan's name in Revelation, "Apolyon," means "the Destroyer."



When Christ was asked to destroy, His response was that He came to save, not to destroy. He said this sort of thing many times.

I think the problem comes in how we understand the whole issue of the Great Controversy. I understand that the fundamental issue revolves around God's rescuing us (and other sentient beings) from sin. He does this by manifesting the truth about Himself, which He did most clearly in the person of Jesus Christ. We are told, of Christ, that *all* that man *can* know about God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ did not destroy. Therefore God does not destroy. It's very simple, to my mind.

TE: Regarding your comments on the GC quote, no, I don't agree, which should be obvious.

MM: Tom, please point out where my comments fail to grasp what she wrote in the GC. Thank you.