Here's what happened to an eye for an eye:



God's character is one of forgiveness. The statements in Revelation must be understood in the context of a cry for justice, which, in Scripture, is setting things right. Their interpretation should be in harmony with God's character, which is represented by Christ's remarks.

The demand for double punishment is in reference to Babylon, isn't it? (Rev. 18:6)



Please be much more careful in how you characterize things. Specifically I have in reference "God just sits back and weeps." This certainly is putting adding an emotional content to my post which doesn't exist in the original. I think you would be better off simply quoting what I wrote rather than misrepresenting it.

God's glory is simply His character. Your questions seem to imply that God is doing something artificial to the wicked, in order to cause them pain. But God is simply being Himself. Their pain is caused by their own wrecked character. God simply takes no joy in their pain.

All the principles I'm speaking of are very clearly brought out in GC 641-643. Here's an excerpt:



Notice that God would make them happy if He could. His desire is for their happiness. That is His character.

The reason for their suffering is pointed out here. Their characters make it so they are not happy in God's presence, or amongst those who follow His principles. Their exclusion from heaven is "voluntary with themselves."



It is not God's will that evil occur ever. God would have all be in harmony with Him and His law. But people, and angels, choose to reject God's wishers, and act according to their own desires.

It is God's will to permit His creatures to exercise their free will, but it is not His will that they should exercise it to do evil.



Actually it is your view which is mafia-like. According to your view, God, in Egpyt, like a mafia guy extorting protection money, applied more and more pressure until finally Pharaoh gave in.

God was not using Satan to do His will, as it was not His will that anyone be destroyed. God would have all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

The right principle is clearly laid out in GC chapater 1.



God was working to save Egypt, but Egypt refused. Eventually, by stubborn rejection of divine law and mercy, they caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to do *his* will. The destruction of Egypt is a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

EGW writes:



Regarding the plagues in Revelation, she writes:





In GC chapter 1, EGW also relates the final plagues to the destruction of Jerusalem, the principles of which we have already discussed.

Now if the character of the plagues of Egypt is similar to the final plagues, and the final plagues come about as God withdraws His protection, allowing the evil one sway to do his will, it only stands to reason that the same thing that will happen in the final plagues happened in Egypt.

Interpreting things this way makes everything fit together. God, in this interpretation, is acting consistently by the same principles, which are the principles detailed in GC chapter 1, and demonstrated in the life and character of Jesus Christ during His incarnation.

TE: This is just quoting Prov. 1:26. Why not just quote the Scripture? Why quote Ellen White quoting Scripture?

MM: Here it is again (please note that nearly two-thirds of the paragraph is Sister White's comments):

In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}

Earlier in this dialog you asked where in inspiration does it describe God expressing satisfaction in the punishment of the wicked. You stated God will display utter sorrow at the final demise of the wicked. Yet you didn't support it with a Thus saith the Lord. Instead you used logical deduction. Again, here is what Inspiration says about it:

"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." I realize this is disgusting to you, but it is the truth according to Inspiration. There are plenty of passages that say the same thing. We cannot ignore them. Nor can we explain away the obvious meaning of the Word of God with smooth sayings, pleasing to the soul, sayings which imply God is too merciful and loving to execute justice. But the Lord of Sabaoth will arise and avenge.

GC 539, 540
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. {GC 539.3}

2T 682
Riches bring with them great responsibilities. To obtain wealth by unjust dealing, by overreaching in trade, by oppressing the widow and the fatherless, or by hoarding up riches and neglecting the wants of the needy, will eventually bring the just retribution described by the inspired apostle: "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth." {2T 682.1}

Tom, you seem to be suggesting that Jesus contradicted Himself, that He refuted and rejected His earlier commandments. That simply is not true, is it? Again, what does demanding double punishment have to do with justice? How does this attitude represent the character of Jesus?

Tom, I’m sorry I misrepresented your ideas. For some reason I have the impression that you believe God will do nothing to punish the wicked other than withdraw His protection and allow them to reap the natural consequences of sinning, and that He will watch and weep as they perish in the lake of fire. Does this jive with what you believe?

Does God allow evil to happen? Does He allow wicked men to work evil? Does He allow evil angels to work evil? Is it His will to permit evil-doers to work evil?

PS - I'll address the rest of your post later on.

MM: It is God's will therefore to permit evil to happen, is it not?

TE: It is not God's will that evil occur ever. God would have all be in harmony with Him and His law. But people, and angels, choose to reject God's wishers, and act according to their own desires.

It is God's will to permit His creatures to exercise their free will, but it is not His will that they should exercise it to do evil.

MM:Does God allow evil to happen? Does He allow wicked men to work evil? Does He allow evil angels to work evil? Is it His will to permit evil-doers to work evil?

God *never* wants evil to happen. Never, ever, ever. God permits His creature to exercise free will. It is always God's will that His creatures act in harmony with His laws, because that's the only path to life, happiness, peace, and all good things.

Because God permits something to happen does not mean He wants the thing He permits to happen, any more than than if we permit something to happen by someone we have power over.

Are you suggesting God wants His creatures to sin, and experience the suffering etc. that comes from that?


PS - I'll address the rest of your post later on.

OK.

Thanks. "Just sits back and weeps" has a pejorative feel to it, which should be evident to you when writing. What you wrote here was much better phrased.



What I believe comes from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. In particular, DA 764 is a description of the event which has made an impression, as well as things she wrote in GC 541-543, as well as other places.



This has two main themes, it seems to me. Well, maybe three. The first two I was thinking of is that death is caused by separating from God. "he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." The second is that the glory of God destroys the wicked, which is caused by their wrecking their character: "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

The third theme is that their death is not caused by God, but by themselves. Just take a look at how many times she brings this out:

a)This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
b)The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
c)God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
d)He is "alienated from the life of God."
e)Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.
f)God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.
g)By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
h)The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

That's 8 times in just one paragraph! She continues on this theme in the following one.

To says that God "sits back and weeps" belittles both God's action, and His weeping. I don't see how anyone could think that God wouldn't weep. Is God callous? Consider the following:



Ellen White's comment:



I'm curious as to what sort of picture one could have of God that would not involve Him weeping uncontrollably when His children perish.

For some odd reason, I'm taking your posts in backwards order, upside down, so to speak. Continuing:

MM: Justice? What does demanding double pain and punishment have to do with justice? Whatever happened to an eye for an eye?

TE: Here's what happened to an eye for an eye:

Quote:
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.(Matt. 5)


God's character is one of forgiveness. The statements in Revelation must be understood in the context of a cry for justice, which, in Scripture, is setting things right. Their interpretation should be in harmony with God's character, which is represented by Christ's remarks.

The demand for double punishment is in reference to Babylon, isn't it? (Rev. 18:6)

MM:Tom, you seem to be suggesting that Jesus contradicted Himself, that He refuted and rejected His earlier commandments.

Not at all. Jesus Himself addressed the objection you are making as follows:



God made certain accommodations because of the hardness of their hearts, but His will was clearly revealed by Jesus Christ. *God's* way is not "eye for eye and tooth for tooth" but "love your enemies," "bless those who despitefully use you" "walk the second mile" "turn the other cheek." This is how God is, as we see clearly revealed by Jesus Christ, who did just these things.

That simply is not true, is it? Again, what does demanding double punishment have to do with justice? How does this attitude represent the character of Jesus?

You're talking about Rev. 18:6, right? Which is dealing with the corrupt system of Babylon? The angels are expressing their desire that this wicked system come to an end.

I'm not understanding why you don't understand that their cry is a cry for justice. It's like the cry of the souls under the altar.

Their attitude represents the attitude of Jesus because Jesus also wants things to be set right. He hates the system of Babylon also.

Earlier in this dialog you asked where in inspiration does it describe God expressing satisfaction in the punishment of the wicked.

I don't recall this. Where?

You stated God will display utter sorrow at the final demise of the wicked.

These weren't my words, but yes, God will, of course, be very sad to see His children perish. How could He not be?

Yet you didn't support it with a Thus saith the Lord. Instead you used logical deduction.

From what? From Scripture, and other inspired statements, correct? IOW, from "Thus saith the Lord."

Again, here is what Inspiration says about it:

"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

I realize this is disgusting to you, but it is the truth according to Inspiration.

What may be disgusting to me is not inspiration, but your interpretation of it. You take things literally which should not be. The bedrock of inspiration is Jesus Christ. Apart from a knowledge of Christ, *no* scripture can be correctly understood. At times, you seem to want to take interpretations that present God in the worst possible light. Instead, what should be done, is to take interpretations which present God's character to be in harmony with what was revealed by Jesus Christ.

Where in Jesus Christ's life during the incarnation do you see Him laughing at the misfortune of another? How can you even imagine that God is like this?

There is absolutely no hope of correctly interpreting Scripture (or SOP) if you read what is written with no regard for what other Scripture has revealed, in particular, in relation to God's character.


There are plenty of passages that say the same thing. We cannot ignore them.

They don't need to be ignored. Just understood.

Nor can we explain away the obvious meaning of the Word of God with smooth sayings, pleasing to the soul, sayings which imply God is too merciful and loving to execute justice. But the Lord of Sabaoth will arise and avenge.

Not in the way you appear to be thinking, which would be out of harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed. God will execute justice as has been revealed in inspiration.

The way God will destroy is plainly stated in inspiration, and I have quoted these sayings to you many times. For example, EGW writes of how God will show He is the living God by His withdrawal. In GC chapter 1 she writes the following:



This is in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which the methodology of how God destroys is spelled out in great detail.




GC 539, 540
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. {GC 539.3}

This paragraph should not be read in isolation, but in conjunction with other things she wrote (for example, in conjunction with the chapter that she started the book with!)

Tom, I see now that you believe all punishment occurs when God commands His holy angels to step aside and allow the evil angels to work devastation and destruction.

Even if this were true of all cases, which clearly is not the case, how does this bode better for God's character? How is it not arbitrary?

Satan is still restrained, is he not? That is, he is not permitted to wreak havoc at will. No! God regulates it, regulates him. God masterminds the whole thing.

Also, where does it say in Inspiration that evil angels pour out the seven last plagues? I have yet to read where it says evil angels pour out the plagues. I have read where they work during the outpouring of the plagues, but I have not read where they are the ones who pour out the seven last plagues.

Here are some other insights regarding who pours out the plagues. They plainly say holy angels pour them out. By the way, the four angels of Rev 7 withdraw so that the seven angels of Rev 15 & 16 can pour out the plagues. All of these angels are in and from heaven. No private interpretation is needed.

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God... And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled... And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Rev 15:1, 8 and 16:1)

At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}

Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. Terror seized me, and I fell upon my face before the angel and begged of him to cause the sight to be removed, to hide it from me, for it was too dreadful. Then I realized, as never before, the importance of searching the Word of God carefully, to know how to escape the plagues which that Word declares shall come on all the ungodly who shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. It was a great wonder for me that any could transgress the law of God and tread down His holy Sabbath, when such awful threatenings and denunciations were against them. {EW 64.2}

The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy, and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. Sin, shame, sorrow, and darkness are on every side; but God still holds out to the souls of men the precious privilege of exchanging darkness for light, error for truth, sin for righteousness. But God's patience and mercy will not always wait. Let not one soul think that he can hide from God's wrath behind a lie, for God will strip from the soul the refuge of lies. The bolts of God's wrath are soon to fall, and when He shall begin to punish the transgressors, there will be no period of respite until the end. The storm of God's wrath is gathering, and those only will stand who are sanctified through the truth in the love of God. They shall be hid with Christ in God till the desolation shall be overpast. He shall come forth to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity, and "the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." {TM 182.2}