I guess there's just one thing I'd like to clarify, that I'm understanding your thinking correctly, and then we can move on to something else (I'm sure this subject will come up again, anyway).

Your belief is that God sends fire upon the wicked, and supernaturally keeps them alive, so they are not killed. He acts similarly to how He did with the Hebrew worthies, in that He worked a miracle to prevent death by fire, although there is a difference in purpose. The worthies did not suffer at all, but the wicked suffer a great deal. The miracle which God performs for the wicked is to allow them to continue to live, so that they can suffer the excruciating pain of being burned by fire, without dying.

So one could imagine something like the following scenario. Fire causes damage to our tissues as they are destroyed, which causes pain. God could restore the damaged tissue, so the person could continue to live, and suffer the same pain again and again as the tissue is miraculously restored.

Have I understood your thinking here correctly?

One particular question I have is if you view the pain that the wicked go through as they are burned by fire to be same as the pain we go through when fire burns us (that is, very painful).


Tom

To tell you the truth, I do not know precisely how it will play out, how the fire works, how God manages the whole thing. I do not think your description, dreadful though it sounds, is totally unlikely. Reading the description of the unsaved perishing in the Flood is similar in some ways, that is, it is heartrending. The following details are particularly sad and disturbing, especially regarding the children:

"Some of the people bound their children and themselves upon powerful animals, knowing that these were tenacious of life, and would climb to the highest points to escape the rising waters. Some fastened themselves to lofty trees on the summit of hills or mountains; but the trees were uprooted, and with their burden of living beings were hurled into the seething billows. One spot after another that promised safety was abandoned. As the waters rose higher and higher, the people fled for refuge to the loftiest mountains. Often man and beast would struggle together for a foothold, until both were swept away." {PP 100.2}

The following description is also sad and disturbing:

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Whether this fire is the glory of God or literal fire managed supernaturally by God or both, it doesn't change the fact that their suffering is sad and disturbing. Of course at that time things will be different. We will behold the work and wrath of God and declare with the sinless inhabitants of the universe, Amen! Holy and just is thy justice, thy retribution, and thy vengeance. But even this, right now, sounds sad and disturbing.

I'm glad to see you describe these things as heart-rending, sad and disturbing, as they are. If I'm understanding you correctly, you appear to feel that while these things appear sad and disturbing now, they won't appear so while it's happening(?). If you think this way, I think that's a shame, since the sensibilities of the righteous in heaven will be much greater than what we feel now, so these things will appear much more sad and disturbing, not less.

God will cry as He never has before, and will be in need of comfort from His creatures. He will exclaim, "How can I give you up?" The unfallen and redeemed will help comfort God both in their having been rescued from the wiles of Satan, and in validating that yes, God, did everything He could to reach the lost. There was nothing that could be done for them.

After the fact, there will be joy that sin is no more, but no joy at all that sinners had to die.

I'm curious as to what you think this means (from what you quoted from EW 294):

In EW 294 (quoted above) Sister White used words like "consumed", "consuming", "unconsumed", and "destroyed" to describe the ongoing and final effects of the fire. She also used "portion" (flesh) and "sense" (feeling). Her language makes it obvious that the ordeal involves intense physical suffering as well as unimaginable mental anguish.

Will our loving heavenly Father allow this kind of suffering and anguish? Why not just end their lives immediately? Why allow them to suffer at all? What purpose will it serve? During the 7 last plagues why do holy angels cry, "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." (Rev 18:6) Why do they clamor for twice as much pain and suffering?

TE: I'm curious as to what you think this means: Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

MM: No doubt it is a phrase the angel borrowed from the following passages:

Isaiah
51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

Isaiah
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I think it is an expression that means sinners will not expire in the lake of fire until they have suffered in proportion to their sinfulness. It does not, of course, mean they will suffer throughout eternity. When people die, worms begin to devour their flesh. And, the fire will not go out until it has served its purpose. This same fire is referred to in the following passage:

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In EW 294 (quoted above) Sister White used words like "consumed", "consuming", "unconsumed", and "destroyed" to describe the ongoing and final effects of the fire. She also used "portion" (flesh) and "sense" (feeling). Her language makes it obvious that the ordeal involves intense physical suffering as well as unimaginable mental anguish.

I don't see how it would be possible to suffer "unimaginable mental anguish" without suffering physically.

Will our loving heavenly Father allow this kind of suffering and anguish? Why not just end their lives immediately? Why allow them to suffer at all? What purpose will it serve?

It is not God's intention that anyone suffer. He would have all repent, and be healed. Those who reject God suffer only because of their refusal to repent.

God, in the judgment, reveals the truth to all. He does this so that all will know the truth, which is very important to God. No one will suffer more than God during the judgment, yet it is so important to God that the truth be known, that He is willing to undergo this suffering. Were God to not resurrect the wicked, they would never know the truth.

During the 7 last plagues why do holy angels cry, "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." (Rev 18:6) Why do they clamor for twice as much pain and suffering?

This is explained in the first chapter of "The Great Controversy." In short, the angels are longing for justice. What this means is expalined in detail in GC, chapter 1.

TE: I'm curious as to what you think this means: Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

MM: No doubt it is a phrase the angel borrowed from the following passages:

Isaiah
51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

Isaiah
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I think it is an expression that means sinners will not expire in the lake of fire until they have suffered in proportion to their sinfulness.

I agree with this.

It does not, of course, mean they will suffer throughout eternity. When people die, worms begin to devour their flesh. And, the fire will not go out until it has served its purpose. This same fire is referred to in the following passage:

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I agree with this too, that it is speaking of the same fire. Also the same fire as here:



And here as well:



Where it appears we differ is that you believe that God needs to add something external or artificial to cause the suffering of those who reject Him (such as by supernatually keeping them alive while He burns them with fire), whereas I believe the suffering comes automatically, simply by way of their being in the presence of God and having things revealed to them.

TE: No one will suffer more than God during the judgment ...

MM: Please support this assertion with quotes. Thank you.

TE: In short, the angels are longing for justice. What this means is expalined in detail in GC, chapter 1.

MM: Do you mean to say the holy angels are merely clamoring for the sinners to see the truth so that they can suffer in proportion to their sinfulness?

TE: Where it appears we differ is that you believe that God needs to add something external or artificial to cause the suffering of those who reject Him (such as by supernatually keeping them alive while He burns them with fire), whereas I believe the suffering comes automatically, simply by way of their being in the presence of God and having things revealed to them.

MM: To tell you the truth, I do not know precisely how it will play out, how the fire works, how God manages the whole thing.

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Whether this fire is the glory of God or literal fire managed supernaturally by God or both, it doesn't change the fact that their physical and mental suffering is real and ultimately destructive. On this I suspect we can both agree.

TE: No one will suffer more than God during the judgment ...

MM: Please support this assertion with quotes. Thank you.

This is obvious. God is love. Love suffers when the object of love is in pain. No one loves as much as God, therefore no one suffers as much as He does.

Just imagine how painful it would be to lose one of your children for eternity, and multiply that by a billion for intensity, and billions more each child, and that's a small idea as to the immensity of God's suffering.

TE: In short, the angels are longing for justice. What this means is expalined in detail in GC, chapter 1.

MM: Do you mean to say the holy angels are merely clamoring for the sinners to see the truth so that they can suffer in proportion to their sinfulness?

No. Justice has to do with things being set right. Holy angels want things to be set right. They want a universe without evil, or injustice, or sin.

TE: Where it appears we differ is that you believe that God needs to add something external or artificial to cause the suffering of those who reject Him (such as by supernatually keeping them alive while He burns them with fire), whereas I believe the suffering comes automatically, simply by way of their being in the presence of God and having things revealed to them.

MM: To tell you the truth, I do not know precisely how it will play out, how the fire works, how God manages the whole thing.

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Whether this fire is the glory of God or literal fire managed supernaturally by God or both, it doesn't change the fact that their physical and mental suffering is real and ultimately destructive. On this I suspect we can both agree.

It makes a difference as to whether their suffering is caused by God, or the result of their sin. It's the difference between whether Jesus saves us from what God will do to us if we don't do what He says, or saves us from suffering the inevitable results of sin. It impacts how we view God, and how we view His purpose.

Sorry for taking a while to get back to this.




So then it was not transferred to Christ, correct?

You mention the daily sacrifice being the vehicle for defilement. But the Scriptures do not say this. They simply say that certain sins defile the sanctuary even when no sacrifice is available. Therefore it is not through a vehicle of sacrifice as there was no applicable sacrifice.



Well this is something I have been trying to figure out. I haven’t read all of the posts to this point, so forgive me if I duplicate a few things.


1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Particularly Peter’s words imply that there was more to it than just a record. He makes reference to Isaiah’s prediction of Christ bearing our iniquity.

Now cross reference this with Hebrews:


Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


The texts seem to indicate a taking on of sin in some fashion in Christ’s death for us. The question becomes are these sins an existing entity or a record, or accountability, etc.

The issue to me is not unimportant, but in one sense it doesn’t matter. My point is that whenever this reference to bearing sin is made the context is of Christ’s bearing sin to the cross where He then died, paying for the sin. Peter’s text is plain on this with the setting being on the tree. Hebrews too ties it to the offering on earth and the ministration in heaven. And even 2 Corinthians refers to a PAST event, utilizing the aorist:


2Co 5:21 τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.



But this was completed by the sacrifice in which the sins were paid for. Christ bore the sins on the tree, but does not bear them any longer, nor will He bear sin when He comes the second time. He paid for the sins.

This concept appears directly before the statement regarding bearing of sins, and is in parallel to it:


But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


There are still records of sin in heaven. But Jesus bore the sins and paid for them by His sacrifice and ministration of it. Those who reject that will face the record of their sin, and accountability, having spurned the sacrifice.




Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



According to Paul in Romans God exercised forbearance, with the view of a future propitiation. But the sacrifices could never take away sins. It was the cross event and its offering in heaven which satisfied the claims of the law, and which allowed God to be both just and justifier. Therefore God overlooked sins before. But it was when Christ became incarnate and made the propitiation, bearing sin, on the cross as our substitute that He properly bore sins in the sense of paying for them. This happened at a particular point in time with the benefits extending forward and back. The forbearance looked forward to this provision. But there was only one time that I could find in Scripture that Christ was specifically said to “made to be sin” or “bore sin” etc. and that is in reference to the cross and its offering.

Once again the point is that the death of the substitute made further bearing of sin unnecessary. Sin was dealt with.



If your family is being abused and you take the abuser to court the judge looks at every wrong thing you and your family ever did to see if it impacts on the case of this abuse?

No. He looks at who the wrong party is in this instance. And in this instance there are two clear sides. There are the saints and the little horn power. The judgment makes clear who is in the wrong, who is a persecuting power. The context is the oppressive activities of the little horn, NOT all the activities and sins and wrongs of the saints. The context is the key issue.



Actually I had a text in mind that we use in Revelation that does not seem to fit the way we use it. I still haven’t figured it out, and apparently neither had the lead scholar I spoke to at Andrews. I am still talking that over with them. Actually, reading on you address it below so I will address it there too.

I have no problem with the literal texts in the epistles etc. But then they do not even mention the 1k years.



Alright, now a couple of things.

Paul says we will not only be present but GIVE AN ACCOUNT. How does that fit with your view that our works will not be examined?

And if we are present and give an account, and all confess, then why does the universe need further demonstration? Some would say God needs justification before so the angels won’t be angry with taking people to heaven. Yet they did not appear angry during the thousands of years where God in His forbearance did not hold sins against people. We make the angels out to be pretty dim.


Second, as to the part about the two resurrections, let’s look at the text. You have taken texts from the epistles and read them back into Revelation. This is where I am currently conflicted. Note these texts from various sources, apocalyptic, narrative, parable, epistle etc.:


Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


These text seem to indicate a resurrection of the righteous and wicked AT JESUS COMING. There does not seem to be a separation of 1k years.

I used to think that the 1k years was just more detail. But that seems hard to justify.

Notice also that the text regarding the millennium does not say precisely what we have taught either:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


It does not say that all the righteous were part of the first resurrection. It mentions a particular group—martyrs who had not received the mark and apparently died because of that refusal.

Then note the account of the second resurrection:


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here it lists all of the dead. And rather than have all those who are going to be in the book of life already decided instead we see that “whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast” ie…the was an examination of whether the name was in the book.

This seems to suggest a full judgment with only a select few especially blessed martyrs being in the first resurrection.

Now, how does this material relate to the more literal texts? I don’t know. They seem to be saying something quite different. But as church we have taken a misreading of the first resurrection and second resurrection of Revelation and read it BACK INTO the literal texts . Why would we interpret the more plain, more abundant texts, that speak of two resurrections at Jesus coming and an immediate judgment in a way that dismisses them I favor of one highly symbolic text in an apocalyptic, complex setting?

It doesn’t make sense to me. This probably accounts for the widely divergent views on the millennium during the early church period.

But the theme throughout the old and new testament seems to be the day of the Lord when all things come to a great judgment at Jesus’ coming. Revelation here seems the only exception.

Therefore I am taking the more abundant and clear texts for now over the interpretation of one apocalyptic and fairly confusing text.



Even here though he says we must APPEAR. So that can’t be the IJ. This is all resolved if we take the literal texts that the judgment of the sheep and goats, of the fish, of the wheat and tares, etc. all happens immediately at Jesus’ coming on the great Day of the Lord.



Can you please indicate how you arrived at the timing of this text being at the time when Jesus leaves heaven? What clues do you have as to its timing?

But what about those who are not saints? When does it happen for them?



A. It was another means of it being taken into the sanctuary for presentation.
B. Since you admit that not all were eaten then wouldn’t the blood have to mean the same thing? And if the fulfillment of the blood was in Hebrews 9, which I COMPLETELY agree with, then why are we waiting for another fulfillment when it was said to be once for all time?



You see I don’t think Christ was defiled because once He died He paid for sins. Was He defiled while on the cross? He became sin for us. So in that sense, yes He was. He was associated with sin and paid the price of it.

But you are suggesting that the sacrifice which MAKES WHAT IT TOUCHES holy was the source of transferring sin. It doesn’t say that at all. It says it transfers holiness.



A. Because the sin bearing is listed in the past tense. He did that already.
B. Do you not think that a one time Sacrifice and presentation of the sacrifice means one time? How then can there be a later ministration of the blood? It was already offered in fulfillment of the type.


More on this in the next post.

In the book of Hebrews we see again and again the idea that Jesus is superior in every way. He is superior to angels, to Moses, His covenant is better, He has a better priesthood, He offers better blood, etc.


In the course of these comparisons the relation of type to fulfillment is often raised. In several instances all admit to a certain discontinuity, though often pre-figured by the OT. Examples include the change of the covenant, foreshadowed in Jeremiah, and the change of priesthood, foreshadowed in the Melchizedek material.


Perhaps the most far reaching though, to my mind, is the change from many sacrifices in the OT type to the one sacrifice in the case of Jesus, once for all.

The fact that all the sacrifices are summed up in one sacrifice can’t help but change aspects of timing in the fulfillment. In other words the type can’t hold true in all respects.

Hebrews itself alludes to a number of sacrifices:



a. Red heifer, 9:13

b. Inauguration, 9:15, and others, argued at length by the comparison to Moses.

c. daily offering, 10:11, 12

d. Day of Atonement, 9:25, etc. argued at some length by the contrasts with the earthly yearly ministration


All seem to agree that these were fulfilled by Jesus’ once for all sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice, so it must also fulfill the Day of Atonement sacrifice.


Jesus is not just described as making the sacrifice but offering it, presenting it in God’s presence.

Here are some of the places that indicate a presentation of the sacrifice:


Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.



Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.



Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.



Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.



The emphasis is on both a single death and a single offering. The futility of the earthly service is not repeated in the heavenly. Only one sacrifice and one presentation or offering of the sacrifice was necessary.


The text makes it plain that there is one offering that perfects the people that cleanses sin, that brings in eternal redemption etc.

As I noted before in 1:7 sins are seen to be cleansed:


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.



If there was a one time, and one time only presentation or offering then it must take in all the offerings of all the sacrifices ever made in the earthly. Hence the reference to the various ones in Hebrews itself (red heifer, daily, yearly, inaugural etc.)


In fact, we see no issue with this in regards to the other feasts, though it causes some differences in what we would expect from the type.


The Passover was fulfilled by Jesus death on the day of Passover. The wave sheaf, according to Paul in I Cor. 15 should be applied to Jesus resurrection on the day after the Sabbath after the Passover. Pentecost was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the first harvest of the believers.


Each of these feasts in the OT required a sacrifice, according to Leviticus 23. We have no problem stating that the one sacrifice and presentation of Christ’s was sufficient in each of these cases, though of course He did not die on the wave sheaf day or Pentecost, and he was not presented on the Passover etc. We recognize that the type shows one sacrifice, and that there cannot then be corresponding sacrifices on each day. Instead we see the essential meaning of the feast for what it is, but see the sacrifice as fulfilled in Jesus actions on the cross and in heaven at His ascension.


It could also be noted that we have what appears to be another instance of discontinuity in that the wave sheaf for example is performed before the inauguration of the temple itself.


However, we take a different policy in regards to the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement. We recognize that the cross is the fulfillment of the sacrifice. But we do not seem to acknowledge that the once for all offering of it also included the once for all offering of the Day of Atonement blood. And yet, I cannot escape the notion that Jesus indeed fulfilled the type there too. Jesus offered blood in God’s presence, once for all, in contrast with the earthly high priest’s ongoing, futile ministrations, year after year.


Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.



Verse 27 and 28 state the next significant cultic event following the ministration of blood in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement sacrifice, and every other sacrifice. In other words, Jesus fulfilled the cleansing and the presentation of blood. The next event is the REST of the type of the Day of Atonement, which is the total removal of the sin problem. I agree this involves a judgment. But the ministration of the blood, as with all the other feasts, already happened.


Again we see the same in Hebrews 10.


Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.



Here again we see the single sacrifice, the single offering for all time and the resulting perfection which could never come from the earthly. The sitting down of Christ seems to represent more than just station or kingly function, though certainly it does mean that. But the sitting here is contrasted with the preceding phrase “every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.”


The sitting is an indication that this High Priest did what the other priests could never do. He completed once for all the offering of the sacrifice. The sacrifice did take away sins. There was no need for an ongoing ministry year after year.


This is precisely what we say didn’t happen. We say that He continues for centuries fulfilling the type of the presentation of blood in Lev. 16. Hebrews says He offered once for all time and sat down.


To me I can’t escape the notion that Christ fulfilled the presentation of blood indicated in the type in Leviticus 16.


In the type once the high priest had made the sacrifice of the goat he would apply the blood in the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place, etc. and then he was said to have made an end of atoning for these.


The next step was to leave the sanctuary and go through the azazel goat portion of the service.


Jesus, at His ascension, is clearly portrayed as presenting His sacrifice in God’s presence, offering it once for all for cleansing. He completed the part dealing with the cleansing of sin. Therefore, to my mind, the next part for Him to do in the type is the portion that happens OUTSIDE of the temple—the scapegoat and the final bearing away of sin.


If that is true then the timing of the sacrifice and presentation of blood in the Day of Atonement fulfillment would be the same as in all the other feasts. It was completed at the cross and ascension.


It seems that we as Adventists have complicated the OT type by reading in what is not there. We say that the cleansing of the sanctuary is a removal of records of sin from the books. Try as I might I can't find any record of books in the description of the Lord's goat sacrifice in Leviticus 16. But I do find a cleansing application of blood for removing uncleanness and transgression of all the people. And I also find that in Hebrews again we see an application of Jesus sacrifice for cleansing, in Day of Atonement language.


This is a straight-forward fulfillment of the type that leads me to wonder why I was looking for some other fulfillment that does not follow as closely. Jesus already completed that part of the Day of Atonement type from what I can tell. And that is the portion of the Day of Atonement type that we associate with the investigative judgment and cleansing.


It is quite simple in one regard. If Jesus sacrifice was once for all time ,and the ministration of it was once for all time, then there can be no further ministration of the blood. That was already fulfilled.

Why did the lamb die in our place if not to pay the price of sin?

Then if the price is paid at the life of the one bearing it, why would sin still be there? It is paid for.

Jesus bore our sins on the tree. He is done with that.