MM: Aren't the following quotes (taken from your recent posts) referring to the same time period in Lucifer's downward path?

"But he chose to carry his points at all hazards." 4SP 319

"But pride forbade him to submit." GC 496

TE: No.

---

TE: "But he chose to carry his points at all hazards." This is speaking of the point in time where Lucifer was shown to be wrong.

"But pride forbade him to submit." You can see that this is the same period of time as the "after" statement from 1SG 319, not from the time he was first given an opportunity to confess his sin.

MM: So, are you agreeing with me, that the two statements refer to the same time period - "after" Lucifer was convinced of his sin and wrongdoing and chose to rebel anyhow?

For reference purposes here is 4SP 319-320

Satan had excited sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

Here, for a time, Satan had the advantage; and he exulted in his arrogated superiority, in this one respect, to the angels of Heaven, and even to God himself. While Satan can employ fraud and sophistry to accomplish his objects, God cannot lie; while Lucifer, like the serpent, can choose a tortuous course, turning, twisting, gliding, to conceal himself, God moves only in a direct, straight-forward line. Satan had disguised himself in a cloak of falsehood, and for a time it was impossible to tear off the covering, so that the hideous deformity of his character could be seen. He must be left to reveal himself in his cruel, artful, wicked works. {4SP 319.2}

He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false

320

claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude. God would preserve the order of the heavens, and had Lucifer been willing to return to his allegiance, humble and obedient, he would have been re-established in his office as covering cherub. But as he stubbornly justified his course, and maintained that he had no need of repentance, it became necessary for the Lord of Heaven to vindicate his justice and the honor of his throne; and Satan and all who sympathized with him were cast out. {4SP 319.3}

Mike, the explanation that seems to make more sense to me is that sin exposes the sinner to the wrath of God, while the wrath of God is not visited upon sins of ignorance. I've already quoted these passages in the past:

"Not one of those ten precepts can be broken without disloyalty to the God of heaven. The least deviation from its requirements, by neglect or willful transgression, is sin, and every sin exposes the sinner to the wrath of God." {1SM 218.2}

"God does not deal thus with His creatures. His wrath is never visited upon sins of ignorance." {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 7}

Tom, here's how I see it (the relationship between the two different paragraphs in 4SP 319-320):

1. "Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

NOTE: When Lucifer was finally convinced of his sin and wrongdoing, which happened just before he was banished from heaven, God offered him one last opportunity to submit to His authority, but Lucifer chose to rebel openly instead.

2. "Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude."

NOTE: The expression "long was he retained in heaven" is not limited to time after Lucifer was convinced of his sin and wrongdoing. It began with when he "first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent", that is, before he was convinced ofhis sin and wrongdoing. Also, the context of this paragrpah places the moment Lucifer was finally convinced of his sin and wrongdoing in the future.

Here is the description of when Lucifer was shown to be wrong:



Notice the underlined part. Lucifer resorted to misrepresentation of the words and acts of God after being clearly shown to be wrong. This is instead of recognizing his error.

Now let's go to the part where Lucifer made his final decision:




Notice that it says he was not immediately dethroned when he began his false claim and lying representations. Even if you make "long was he retained in heaven" refer to the period starting from when Lucifer began to indulge a spirit of discontentment and insubordination, it is still clear that there was a period of time after Lucifer was given a chance to confess his sin and his final decision to go against God. This is made clear by here saying "nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels."

TE: "But he chose to carry his points at all hazards." This is speaking of the point in time where Lucifer was shown to be wrong.

"But pride forbade him to submit." You can see that this is the same period of time as the "after" statement from 1SG 319, not from the time he was first given an opportunity to confess his sin.

MM: So, are you agreeing with me, that the two statements refer to the same time period - "after" Lucifer was convinced of his sin and wrongdoing and chose to rebel anyhow?

No, they are clearly not referring to the same time. The first one is referring to the time when Lucifer was clearly shown to be wrong. The second one is referring to the time when Lucifer made his final decision.

That Lucifer's final decision was not at the same time when he was clearly shown to be wrong is the whole point of the paragraphs of 319. She is showing how patient was in dealing with Lucifer.

I don't understand how anyone can see these actions as either not being sin at all, or merely sins of ignorance. His course was "with convincing clearness shown to be be wrong" yet "he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator."

He was sinning (assuming resorting to misrepresentation of the words and acts of the Creator in order to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him is sin), and he knew what he was doing (since he had been with convincing clearness shown to be wrong).

I disagree. They are referring to the same time.

She wrote:

1.Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator.

At this point in time, we'll call it "A," Lucifer was clearly shown to be wrong, and given an opportunity to confess his sin. In response to this, Lucifer resorted to misrepresentation, in order to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him.

A couple of paragraphs later she writes:

2. He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.

We'll call this time "B". How do we know "B" is after "A"?

First of all, it says "He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels."

The part being underlined goes back to "A". Lucifer was not banished from heaven when "A" occurred.

Secondly she writes "Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission." We see from this that Lucifer was not given just one chance to confess his sin, but "again and again" he was given this chance. "A" is referring to the first chance. "B" is after the "again and again" had passed.

If "A" and "B" were the same period of time, she would have had to have written something like this:

"Lucifer was clearly shown to be wrong. He was given an opportunity (that is, one opportunity) to confess his sin. But he refused, etc."

Instead she wrote, "Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission."

By this I assume you believe sins of ignorance do not require the shed blood of Jesus, that God can pardon them without shedding the blood of Jesus. If this is true, why, then, did God require people to shed the blood of innocent animals to atone for their sins of ignorance after the fact, after they became aware of it?

Does this imply God would have bee required to shed the blood of Jesus if Lucifer had repented of his "sin" after the fact, after he became aware of it?

Also, what is the basis of sins of ignorance? Is it not a lack of knowledge? If so, how can we say Lucifer, a being fully aware of the truth, sinned ignorantly in heaven?

Also, do you agree with Tom that the fact God would have pardoned Lucifer's willful sin without shedding the blood of Jesus clearly teaches God does not require blood in order to satisfy the just and loving demands of the law?

The fact that Satan said God was dealing unjustly with him, that God was unjust, and that the law was restrictive of liberty, were, all of them, false claims and lying representations. This, however, does not necessarily mean that these were intentional lies – it was the way how he saw things at that time.

However, after he saw he was wrong and fell, he began to lie intentionally.

“Satan had excited sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator.” {4SP 319.1}

Notice that at first his false representations were about the unjust attitude of the Creator toward him (as he saw it); after he fell (“chose to carry his points at all hazards”), he began to misrepresent (or twist) even the words and acts of the Creator – that is, he began to tell open lies.


“A” is referring to the last chance.