The Plan of Salvation was the only way to save man. I've not said other than this. I was explaining how, from your perspective, the GC was inevitable. That should be pretty easy for you to see, since you don't believe God has options.

Because sometimes decisions are uncertain while other times they aren't. For example, God could know that you would prefer strawberry to vanilla in a certain instance (because you always do this) but not that you will navy blue to black (because sometimes you do one, and sometimes the other).



Nothing. God does know everything about everyone.



Why are you asking this? If you are going to ask a question again which you've already asked several times before, and has been answered several times, please explain why you are reasking the question. Before knowing why you're asking this again, I'll just say my answer is the same as it was the other times.

Regarding the topic, it occurs to me that the idea that God doesn't have options is anti-freedom. I'll explain.

If God has no options, then the more we become like God, the fewer options we will have, until, when we become just like Him, we won't have any. This seems to be in harmony with Satan's arguments, which is that serving God is constricting while sin leads to freedom. I believe this is exactly backwards.

Beings that have greater power and greater intelligence have more freedom, more options, than beings with less power and less intelligence. Sin restricts a persons options and freedom. True freedom is to be found in the service of God. As we become more like Him, our options will increase, not decrease.

You know very well what I mean, and you did not answer my question. If God knows how someone will respond to His influence, how come He didn’t know that Lucifer and that Adam and Eve would respond negatively to His influence?

TV: If sin had never raised its ugly head, then of course no GC would ever have been needed.

MM: Amen!

TV: But now sin did happen and we are daily suffering for it. We are daily learning the futility of the ways opposed to Gods ways. We will remember for eternity.

MM: Amen!

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MM: Thomas, there was something else I had in mind. At one point I wrote, "I do not believe the GC was 'necessary' in order for God to be able to guarantee FMAs will never rebel again." Of course, in the end, the GC will contribute to this effect.

However, it doesn't explain how or why God can know such a thing about the future, about eternity beyond the end of the GC. What is it about God that enables Him to look into infinity and know FMAs will never rebel again?

Neither does it explain why equivalent knowledge of God's character (according to Tom Ewall) did not prevent Lucifer and one-third of the angels from rebelling. Why not? What was it about God that prevented Him from knowing certain FMAs would rebel within a relatively short period of time?

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MM: I also wrote, "Why FMAs chose to rebel is unexplainable. It is mysterious. If God foresaw it (my perspective) or even if He foresaw it as a possibility (Tom's perspective), either way God chose to create FMAs and ended up having to deal with the GC."

Why do you think God chose to create FMAs in spite of knowing they would rebel or in spite of knowing they might rebel? Either way, why didn't He simply opt not to create them in the first place?

TE: The Plan of Salvation was the only way to save man.

MM: Tom, you seem to be saying God didn't have options. That "the" plan of salvation, as we know it, was God's only option. Is that what you're saying, that God didn't have any options?

From my perspective, however, there was at least a second option, albeit a theoretical one. God could have chosen not to implement the plan of salvation. He could have allowed A&E to die eternally the instant they chose to sin.

Then God would have been forced to disprove Satan's accusations some other way, that is, if He didn't want the loyal angels to serve Him out of fear only to eventually rebel. Of course, theoretically, He could have opted to just eliminate all FMAs and either leave it at that or start all over again with a fresh batch of FMAs.

MM: How can He know what we always do under certain circumstances hundreds of years before we are born? If He can know it about some things hundred of years before we are born, why can't He know it about all things hundreds of years before we are born?

By way, how far back does this go? Did God know these things about everyone dating back to eternity past? Or, is there a limit to how far back God can know these things? I seem to recall you saying there is no limit, that God has always known these things. So, please forgive me for asking it again.


MM: If God knows "everything" about everyone before they are born, why, then, do you insist there are certain things about people He cannot know ahead of time?


MM: I'm sorry for asking the same question again without explaining why. I used to think you thought God knew rebel might happen but that He didn't know ahead of time which FMAs would choose to rebel. Now it seems like you're saying God knows some things about everyone before they were created or born.

With this in mind, I would like know if you think God knew ahead of time that Lucifer and A&E were going to rebel? If so, why didn't He simply leave them uncreated?

If not, then why not? That is, if God didn't know they were going to rebel, why didn't He know? Since He knows perfect and sinless beings will not rebel in the future, why couldn't He know perfect and sinless beings were going to rebel in the beginning?

MM: That God had options is clear from the fact He created several different species of FMAs. But when it came to creating human beings God's options were two, 1) To create them and deal with the GC, and 2) Not to create them and not deal with the GC. I realize you believe there was at least one other option, namely, To create them knowing they might rebel but hopping they wouldn't.

And when it came to redeeming mankind after he rebelled I assume we both agree God's options were two, 1) Implement the plan of salvation, and 2) Not implement the plan of salvation. Or, do you believe there were other options? If so, what might they be?

Of course, I believe there was only one legitimate, viable option available to God. All options, other than the one God chose to go with, were only theoretical. Why? Because God is perfect, omnipresent, and omniscient. He can only do that which is right and best and perfect, and by virtue of the definition of "right and best and perfect" there can be only one right and best and perfect way.

The Holy Spirit appealed to Judas’ heart, as He appeals to yours. Jesus washed his feet to lead him to repentance. He always had a real choice. But he chose to resist God’s Spirit and reject salvation. The fact that God knew this beforehand didn’t deter Him from doing everything possible to save Judas. And it’s this that makes Judas’ choice inexcusable.
What does not fit with the God I see in the Bible is that He had to ensure that someone would betray Christ just to fulfill a prophecy.


I read an anology the other day, and found it interesting.
Say that human history is like watching a parade. We, finite people, sit and watch. What is in front of us is the present, what has already gone by is the past and the tail end of the parade is the future. So, we see in past, present and future.
God, however (remember, this is only an analogy), is watching the parade from a helicopter. He sees the whole parade - there is no past, present or future.

There is no theory that does not have its problems. I think the Open Theism describes reality better than does the other theory, despite of not being able to explain everything.