TE: So Lucifer was given many opportunities to confess his sin. Do you agree with this? (not the whole thing I've laid out here, but just this one point that Lucifer was given many opportunities to confess his sin).

MM: No. He was granted "an" opportunity to confess his sin after he was convinced of wrongdoing. "But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

"Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards."

TE: That doesn't make sense, MM, because Lucifer was offered pardon again and again, not just once. If he was only offered one chance to confess his sin, then it would follow that he was only offered pardon once. A condition for pardon was the confession of his sin, thus each offer of pardon included an opportunity for Lucifer to confess his sin.

Of course he was guilty of wrongdoing. The fact that he was given an opportunity to confess his sin is proof that he was doing something wrong, or else there wouldn't have been any sin to confess.



These included "lying representations," which implies intent. Lucifer's "hard questions" were NOT sincere. They were an attempt to win converts to his side. This is in the EGW account.

Anyway, the fact that Lucifer was offered pardon and allowed to confess his sin demonstrates that he had sinned. Isn't this super obvious?



This doesn't match what she wrote. It's not simply that his conclusions were wrong (which he knew all the time; he knew that he did not deserve to be in the place of God), but his actions were wrong.



Indulging the spirit of discontent and insubordination was wrong. So was presenting his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels.

Bearing false witness is one of the ten commandments. Breaking this commandment is sin.



Since he was given an opportunity to confess his sin, there had to be sin for him to confess. This sin is specified here as exciting sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him, the "lying representations" EGW speaks of in the other quote.

MM: By this I assume you believe sins of ignorance do not require the shed blood of Jesus, that God can pardon them without shedding the blood of Jesus. If this is true, why, then, did God require people to shed the blood of innocent animals to atone for their sins of ignorance after the fact, after they became aware of it?

R: Sins of ignorance sometimes involve neglect, which means the person is not entirely exempt from guilt.

MM: Does this imply God would have been required to shed the blood of Jesus if Lucifer had repented of his "sin" after the fact, after he became aware of it?

R: I don’t think so. Ellen White implies his sin could just be blotted out.

MM: Also, what is the basis of sins of ignorance? Is it not a lack of knowledge? If so, how can we say Lucifer, a being fully aware of the truth, sinned ignorantly in heaven?

R: A lack of knowledge may be due to neglect, or it may be due to mental blindness. Ellen White says Lucifer had an species of insanity.

MM: Also, do you agree with Tom that the fact God would have pardoned Lucifer's willful sin without shedding the blood of Jesus clearly teaches God does not require blood in order to satisfy the just and loving demands of the law?

R: No, and I don’t believe Lucifer’s was a willful sin.

TE: "But such efforts as infinite love and wisdom only could devise, were made to convince him of his error. His disaffection was proved to be without cause, and he was made to see what would be the result of persisting in revolt."

Notice that Lucifer was made to see what would be the result of "persisting in revolt." This means he had already been in revolt, or rebellion, before his fall.

MM: Tom, there is only one quote which uses the word "sin" in relation to Lucifer's behavior, and it refers to moment he was convinced pursuing his course further would be wrong. The instant he decided to rebel "at all hazards" is the instant he committed the unpardonable sin. All those times he was offered pardon, before becoming guilty of sin, he was not guilty of sinning.

MM: Tom, again, the "sin" quote refers specifically to the moment he was convinced pursuing his course further would be sinning. She never once used the word "sin" to describe his course before he was convinced it would be wrong to continue pursuing it.

Satan had excited sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. (4SP 319)

Satan . . . began his work of rebellion with the angels under his command, seeking to diffuse among them the spirit of discontent. And he worked in so deceptive a way that many of the angels were won to his allegiance before his purposes were fully known.--RH Jan. 28, 1909.

Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint.(GC 495)

MM: Tom, there is only one quote which uses the word "sin" in relation to Lucifer's behavior, and it refers to moment he was convinced pursuing his course further would be wrong. The instant he decided to rebel "at all hazards" is the instant he committed the unpardonable sin. All those times he was offered pardon, before becoming guilty of sin, he was not guilty of sinning.

TE: MM, if Lucifer had not sinned, he wouldn't need pardon. If you are correct that once Lucifer sinned, God would not pardon him, then we have a scenario wherein God offered Lucifer pardon, as long as he didn't need it, but as soon as he did need it, God discontinued the offer. That would be pretty odd, don't you think?

Regarding where it says that Lucifer was given the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven, you understand this to mean that he could have been pardoned had he chosen to do so, don't you?

Isn't willful transgression what we need pardon for? If Lucifer wasn't doing anything He thought was wrong, why would he need pardon?

I wonder how these things could be seen be anyone as not willful or deliberate. Just how does one go forth to diffuse a spirit of discontent, working in secrecy to disguise one's purpose, in a manner that is not deliberate or willful?