This is correct, and this is the point I've been making for some time now. Again, I'm glad you are agreeing with this.

Do you agree that God's perception of reality is accurate? IOW, God perceives reality to be as it really is?



Right, and another point I've been making.



Logic has to do with factual statements and reasoning from cause to effect.

If God is timeless, for example, this has certain logical ramifications. One of them is that God could not think, as I've pointed out, since thinking requires a process to take place, and it makes no sense to speak of a timeless being in terms of a process.

God, under your presuppositions, would simply know everything, and have no need to think (let along not being able to).

Another logical ramification of your idea is that it is possible to exist at different moments of time simultaneously. If this is possible, that says something about sequential events, for example. If one is at every time all at once, then one cannot experience the sequence of events. Indeed, such a phrase "sequence of events" doesn't even make sense in such a setting.

Tom, can we really place God in a box and say, Since God is omnipresent He cannot experience thought processes like we do.

The problem is not His being omnipresent, but being timeless. We can certainly say that a timeless being cannot experience things that happen in sequence, because that would be impossible. It's a contradiction in terms.

The reason that Plato argued that God was impassible was exactly because of this problem. Plato's logic wasn't wrong, just the timeless/unchanging assumption.

Tom, God is omnipresent, which means He is not bound by our time and space continuum. We cannot apply the same logic to God as we do to ourselves. Nothing is impossible with God. He is everywhere at the same time. Is that logical? Not from our perspective. But it is, nevertheless, true.

Matthew
19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke
1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

The laws of logic and reason apply to God as much as to anyone else. There are some things impossible with God. He cannot create a square circle, He cannot create a rock so big He cannot lift it, and so forth. God can do anything that's possible to do, but some things are logical contradictions.

It seems to me that you are simply unaware of the implications of the ideas you have. For example, consider the idea that God is timeless and His knowledge perfect. What are the implications of this? It means His knowledge is changeless too. But if His knowledge never changes, then it doesn't make any sense to say that God figures any thing out, for example. He just knows. He couldn't think or make decisions in this scenario.

Do you understand this?

These implications follow from your presuppositions regarding God and timelessness. These are Platonic ideas. They are not Scriptural. Scripture presents God as a Being who thinks, who makes decisions, who grieves, who regrets, who reacts, not as a timeless, changeless, impassible Being.

Sister White does as well. For example, she speaks of God's struggling to make a decision. This is not congruent with your ideas. The whole of the account of Early Writings, I think page 120 which recounts what happened in heaven when man sin is not congruent with your ideas. This story demonstrates that there is such a thing as past, present and future even for God.

So does her statement that heaven was imperiled for our redemption, and Christ risked His eternal existence in coming here to save us. These would be ridiculous statements to make if Christ were a timeless being. You can see this, can't you? A timeless being ceasing to exist? That can't be.

Did you ever answer my question if God perceives reality as it is? I don't think you did. Please do. There's another implication I'd like to point out.

TE: The laws of logic and reason apply to God as much as to anyone else.

MM: Then how do you explain the fact God is everywhere at the same time?

TE: Did you ever answer my question if God perceives reality as it is? I don't think you did. Please do. There's another implication I'd like to point out.

MM: Yes, I did. It's at the top of this page.

I'm not seeing your answer, MM. Could you repeat it please? (the top of the page for you might not be the same as it is for me)

That God is everywhere at the same time is not illogical.

You didn't really address my post.

TE: I'm not seeing your answer, MM. Could you repeat it please? (the top of the page for you might not be the same as it is for me)


TE: That God is everywhere at the same time is not illogical.

MM: What is not illogical about it? How can someone be everywhere at the same time?

MM, this is not an answer to my question. It's an answer to a question you decided to ask yourself. My question is not if reality is what God perceives it to be as opposed to what we perceive it to be. My question is if reality is as God perceives it to be. There is no way to read the answer to the question you asked yourself and answered and no what the answer to my question is. It could be "yes" or it could be "no." I have no way of knowing.

Logic has to do with presuppositions and reasoning from cause to effect. Why would you think it is illogical to assert that God is everywhere at the same time? What logic do you think is violated here? (that is, what presupposition, what reasoning from cause to effect).

My point was that the laws of logic apply to God as much as to any other being. If they didn't, we couldn't talk about God at all, at least not in any reasonable or logical way.

I pointed out that a timeless being cannot experience things sequentially. This is simple logic. That God is God doesn't change this fact in any way. I also gave you specific examples to illustrate the fact. For example, if God's knowledge does not change (which must be the case if God is timeless) then God cannot decide anything because knowledge must change in order for a decision to be made.

Before a decision is made, one has not decided what one will do, and therefore one's knowledge will reflect that fact. After a decision has been made, one's knowledge will change, recognizing that a decision has now been made, when previous to the decision being made, that wasn't the case, which one's previous knowledge reflected.

Another example is EW 126, which depicts an event happening in real time, even for God. God the Father held meetings with God the Son, in which the Son pleaded for permission to come to earth. After three meetings, the Father finally agreed, though it was a struggle. There's no way this description of events can describe the interaction of two timeless beings.

TE: My question is if reality is as God perceives it to be.

MM: Reality has nothing to do with perception. Reality is what is.

TE: Why would you think it is illogical to assert that God is everywhere at the same time?

MM: I don't think it is illogical. I believe God is everywhere at the same time - even though I cannot explain it, even though it contradicts the laws of nature and logic as I know it. I assume, therefore, based on faith, that God's ability to be everywhere at the same time is consistent with laws and logic that apply to Him but not to me. He is God. I am not.

Consequently, He is able do things I cannot do, things that do not violate the laws of nature as they apply to me, even though they are things I cannot do and not violate them. For example, I cannot travel at the speed of light. The laws of physics disallow it. But God can, without violating them. Other laws apply which to conflict with our laws.

TE: I pointed out that a timeless being cannot experience things sequentially.

MM: I disagree. The fact God is not bound our time and space continuum in the same way we are does not mean He cannot experience real time (reality) like we do. Whether it is past, present, or future, God experiences things in real time (reality) which means at any given moment He is aware of events happening before and after.

For example, since God is everywhere at the same time it means I can be sitting on His lap in Phoenix while you are sitting on His lap in Topeka.