1 John 3:4 says that those who commit sin ALSO transgress the law. That "also" means something.

James, when the word "law" is used in the New Testament, you have to be aware of the context. The only law that was done away with was the ritual law that pointed forward to Jesus' appearance on earth. It obviously became redundant once the real Sacrifice had appeared. That was the law that was nailed to the cross. The other things have no reason to go. For example, do you think it's proper for someone taking the name of Jesus to commit adultery now? Paul condemned that idea.

The law was never the means by which we gained salvation - Old or New Testament. It was always by faith - see Hebrews 11 - and in several places in the Old Testament, God talks about writing the law on our hearts. Things like Sabbath keeping existed before the ten commandments were given, so there was a general knowledge of God's wishes without the letter of the law before the Jews existed.

I agree that some posts here and elsewhere on this board make salvation partly earned. Away with that idea. It's a GIFT, and that's that. But obedience is also a gift - ask the recovering alcoholic if it isn't - and we need to honour God by seeking to do His will in all things, to bring glory to His name - see the 23rd Psalm. People who focus on the works make them part of the parcel in a way that our filthy rags somehow contributes to our salvation. It doesn't, and the reason we'll throw our crowns at Jesus' feet in the New Earth is because we had zero to do with it - we were passive recipients of justification, sanctification, and glorification. The way we co-operate and overcome is the way Jesus did - in total dependence on His Father. He didn't even make plans for the day. It's all there in scripture.

So I think you're absolutely right in much of what you say, but I also agree that the symptom of a tight relationship with Jesus is obedience. He likes to polish us and have us represent His perfect character.

Is faith passive? Is Grace passive?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Strong’s =”works” [pertaining to the above scripture]
2041 ergon {er'-gon}
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); TDNT - 2:635,251; n n
AV - work 152, deed 22, doing 1, labour 1; 176
1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied 1a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking 2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind 3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work”.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, [ACTIVE] and not hearers only, PASSIVE] deceiving your own selves.

What are we commanded to do;

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

We can do nothing Spiritual of our selves, only produce filthy rags but …..

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The fruit of faith is “works”, not to gain heaven but because of deep love for Jesus and their fellow man.

Quote:
The Signs of the Times---- 06-28-05---The Results of Repentance
“The great Teacher, in His lessons, presents the life-diffusing power of His grace, declaring that through His grace men and women may live the new life of holiness and purity. He who lives this life works out the principles of the kingdom of heaven. Taught of God, he leads others in straight paths. The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked receives so abundant a supply of the rich grace of heaven that, beholding his good works, unbelievers acknowledge that he is controlled and sustained by divine power, and give to God the glory.”
End Quote

Jesus said:
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [see Strong’s def. above pertaining to this verse]

Please read Hebrews 11……we find that by faith and the power of His Grace…..Man DID. …..[active]

Welfare Ministry---- The Present and Eternal Rewards-----PG- 315
The Two Oars--Faith and Works.
“If we are faithful in doing our part, in cooperating with Him, [316] God will work through us [to do] the good pleasure of His will. But He cannot work through us if we make no effort. If we gain eternal life, we must work, and work earnestly. . . . Let us not be deceived by the oft-repeated assertion, "All you have to do is to believe." Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we [would] press our way up the stream against the current of Unbelief. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." The Christian is a man of thought and practice. His faith fixes its roots firmly in Christ. By faith and good works he keeps his spirituality strong and healthy, and his spiritual strength increases as he strives to work the works of God.” - Review and Herald, June 11, 1901.

Patriarchs and Prophets---- The Test of Faith----PG- 153
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: an he was called the friend of God." James 2:23. And Paul says, "They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7. But Abraham's faith was made manifest by his works. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.?" James 2:21, 22. There are many who fail to understand the relation of faith and works. They say, "Only believe in Christ, and you are safe. You have nothing to do with keeping [154] the law." But genuine faith will be manifest in obedience. Said Christ to the unbelieving Jews, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. And concerning the father of the faithful the Lord declares, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. Says the apostle James, "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17. And John, who dwells so fully upon love, tells us, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME" Praise God.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

There are 2 paths that lead to eternity...the broad and passive, that leads to distructionor the narrow, Active way that follows Jesus.

[ June 02, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

What does these verses means to you (in KJV)?

I divide my thoughts regarding the law as follows:

1. The law was in effect for a time period only.

- Luke 16:16 – “The law and the prophets were until John; since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

- Galatians 3:22-26 –“But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

(Firstly, the law was given to give life for those who keep and obey the law perfectly in order he might be justified by the law and rewarded with eternal life).

- Leviticus 18:4,5 –“ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them; I am the Lord.”

- Romans 10:5 –“For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”

In His love

James S.

2. The law also served to expose sin, judgment and condemnation. Without a written law, there is no standard for judgment and condemnation against transgression inspite the fact that death already reigned from Adam till Moses. If the law was not given, men might protest God to be unjust and unfair and not the God he claimed to be as a loving God. Death reigned because of the transgression of one single man but the whole world must suffer and die for it.

- Galatians 3:19 – “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;”

- Romans 4:15 – “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.”

- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

- Romans 5:20 –“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” (NIV – The law was added so that the trespasses might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more).

- Romans 3:20 –“Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

- Romans 7:7 –“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

In His love

James S.

3. Israel was chosen to proclaim God’s holy law and his great love to the world, they were example for what will happen to mankind if God’s law ruled the world.

- Romans 3:19,20,23 –“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

- Romans 7:9-11 –“For I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.” (NIV-For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death).
-Romans 7:5 –“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (NIV-For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death).

- 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 –“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious………..how shall the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”

- 1 Corinthians 15:56 – “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” (NIV-The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law).

In His love

James S.

4. That is the reason Christ must came and die to redeem men as no man could earn life through justification by the law, on the contrary all what the law could do is to condemn all law keeper with death as all were find guilty before the law. Why? Because through their obedience their sinful nature was exposed, the sin in the flesh, the self-love nature inherited from Adam since the fall that is against the demands of the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”. Obeying the law empowers sin of self-love to work in our bodies and bore deeds of the flesh. With his death on the cross, Christ redeemed and released all men from the wages of sin and through his Spirit that works in a believer heart who lives by the Spirit, he released men from the power of sin through a change of character. It is no longer the law as a standard of living but “love that seeks no self” is the standard of character. And it is also no longer Christ’s life as an example of obedience but his life is an example for “love to our fellow men”, that he has proven by giving his life so that we might live. The law has lost it functions and it meanings in Christ for those who believe and would be no longer exist. Christ has nailed the law to his cross and abolished it in his flesh, so that, his believers might live and depends only to the Spirit through faith.

- Romans 10:4 –“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

- Galatians 3:24,25 –“ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

- Romans 7:6 –“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of spirit; and not in the oldness of the letter.”

- Galatians 4:21-31 –“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (If under the law means only under condemnation of the law, who on earth would like to be under condemnation? But as according to Romans 3:19 & Romans 2:12,13, under the law means under it authority and obligation to keep and obey the law, under it judgment and condemnation). For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory; for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

- Romans 7:4 –“Wherefore, my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

- Ephesians 2:14-16 –“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.” (The wall of partition between the Jews and the gentiles was the Jew’s customs, the law, for the Gentiles have not the law. By abolishing the law in his body, Christ has made all men equal, all depends on him for righteousness as a free gift obtained through faith).

- Colossians 2:13,14 –“And you, being dead in your sins and uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” (Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances could not be the record book of sins, because sins were not contrary to us and against us, it is our nature. What was blotted out is the law, as the law is spiritual, holy, good and just but we were flesh, sinful and could only do evil. Our nature is not subject to the law of God – Romans 8:7; our sinful nature is against and in contrary with the intent of the law “love that seeks no self”, which the Spirit desired to create it in us – Galatians 5:16,17).

- Hebrew 10:1 –“For the law having a shadow of good things to come (righteousness by faith in Christ), and not the very image of the things (righteousness that brought life), can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (righteousness by the law).”

- Hebrew 7:18,19 –“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw night unto God.” (The law could only condemn those who keep it, but in Christ by faith we had been reconciled to God through his blood).

- Hebrew 8:7,13 – For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. In that he hath said, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (The ministry to the law that was intended to bring life (Romans 7:10) in fact could only brought condemnation and death. A new covenant based on grace, the ministry of the Spirit was given, to bring righteousness and life for those who believe. The old passed away, and the new era begun – 2 Corinthians 3:6-11).

In His love

James S.

I have shared and explained my thoughts regarding the law of the 10 Commandments. The Torah that includes the Ten Cs was over and exists no more as an obligation to keep and obey and a standard for living righteously. Saying that the sacrificial law that was nailed but the Ten Cs still exist and binds all believers has no Scriptural basic. It was the idea of men, to lead people away from Christ. Remember that the law WAS a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ, thus, once in Christ by faith, the law ends. Still keeping the law would only shows that we still seeks Christ and were not in him yet.

But once we were in him by faith, the Spirit take over to guide us and lead us to heaven by a change of character, to impart Christ righteousness, to create “love that seeks no self” in our heart that we may love one another. The law is no longer a standard of Christian’s living, but Christ’s life is the standard, not his obedience but his love for the world that he had shown to the utmost by giving his life for us so that we may live.

All what we read in the book of John regarding to keep and obey the law is not the law of the Ten Cs but “love one another”, or the principle of the law that we must have in our heart if we believe in Christ and would give our self to be lead by His Spirit. In fact, it was a command to live by faith, since those who believes would be sealed by the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and will have the fruit of the Spirit that is love.

All quotes of verses from the OT regarding law keeping was directed for Israel or the Jews only, as the law was designated for them and not for the Gentiles. These commands were not directed to us the Gentiles, but to them only.

Since Christ has died and justified all men once and for all, the law has lost it purpose and comes to an end. What left now is men obligation to live for God because God had given his only begotten Son to save them. It is now just between: to live for self or to live for God, to serve the flesh or to serve God. And to live for God we need faith, since God that will work in us ‘to will and to do according to his good purpose.” Nothing else is asked from us, if we want to live for God that means we would deny the flesh. And for this the Spirit empowers us, because it is the goal of the Spirit to release us from the power of sin where all the desire of the flesh rooted.

Erecting what was destroyed on the cross, shows only our unfaithfulness and made us again a sinner (Galatians 2:18), the law will expose our sin again and put us to death in spite Christ had saved us and made us free from the wages of sin and the power of sin. This is what was said in the Scripture: “The law is not of faith” and “whatever is not of faith is sin” (Galatians 3:12; Romans 14:23). Keeping the law has no place in a faith relationship with God, but if you still want to keep it, then all your deeds will comes from the sin of self-love, your sinful nature. Without fruit of the Spirit no one is fit for heaven.

And believing that the Spirit empowers a law keeper to make him able to obey the law has no Scriptural basic. As it was said above, the law is not of faith, there is no place for the law in a faith relationship with God, so, how could the Spirit empowers a believer to obey the law” After all, you have the Spirit because of your faith in Christ.

“Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16)
“But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18).

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the obligation to keep and obey the law and the law has no authority to judge you and condemns you. Shall you then miss the mark and do evil if there is no law as a standard for righteousness? The Scripture said:” Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” Is that not enough for you? Have you still doubt? Do you believe God or do you believe what men said?

In His love

James S.

I have also decided to move this topic into the more appropriate Search For Truth forum where the discussion can continue.