If I understood you correctly, in your view as soon as someone sinned (whether he had repented of this sin or not), his sin defiled the sanctuary. The transference of sin to the victim, who died for it, constituted another process, unrelated to the defilement of the sanctuary.

First let’s see how the sanctuary was defiled.
The sanctuary could be defiled by those who did not belong to the people of God. However, this refers to a physical defilement (Ps 74:7, 79:1).

The sanctuary also could be defiled by deliberate sins of the people of God (Ez 23:38, Zeph. 3:4) - sins unrepented of, for which no personal blood offering was presented. This was a spiritual defilement, but these sins defiled the sanctuary in a different way than sins repented of. They defiled or profaned the sanctuary in the same way that they defiled the whole land (Jer. 16:18), that they defiled God’s name (Ez 36:20, Am 2:7), and that they profaned God Himself (Ez 22:26).

You will notice that in the day of atonement it was not these sins, but the sins repented of that the high priest brought from the sanctuary after the atonement, cleansing it (Lev. 16:20-22). So the annual cleansing of the sanctuary had mainly to do with sins repented of, which had accumulated in the sanctuary during the year.

Now you ask, how do we come to the conclusion that these sins were transferred to the sanctuary through the sacrifices?
If the sanctuary were defiled as soon as someone sinned, this could be understood in terms of the building itself, or more specifically in terms of the holy of holies, where the transgressed law was. What would the altar (which was directly associated with the sacrifices) have to do with this?

However, the Bible says,
“And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it [the altar] with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel” (Lev. 16:19).
Why was the altar cleansed on the day of atonement, except for the fact that it had been defiled by the transgressions of the children of Israel? And how could it have been defiled except by the transference of sin through the sacrifices?
If everything that the sacrifice touched was holy, how is it that the altar was defiled?

There are two pieces of furniture which are specifically mentioned as being cleansed on the day of atonement – the sacrifice altar (Lev. 16:18-20) and the incense altar (Ex. 30:10).
Why had the incense altar to be atoned for? Because, as we have already discussed, there were two kinds of sin-offerings:
1) those from which the blood wasn’t taken inside the sanctuary. In this case the priest ate the flesh – Lev. 6:26, 7:7
2) those from which the blood was taken inside the sanctuary. In this case part of the blood was sprinkled before the veil and part of it was put on the horns of the incense altar - Lev. 4:6,7,17,18. So that’s why the incense altar had to be atoned for.

This fact - the defilement of the altars - implies, in my opinion, that sin was indeed transferred to the sanctuary by the blood.


As I see it, when the priest offered a sacrifice for himself, bringing the blood to the holy place (Lev. 4:1-7), the sins which had been transferred to him would end up being transferred to the temple together with his own.


You are trying to dissociate concepts that cannot be dissociated. If Christ’s work of bearing sins had the purpose of preventing the wrath of God from falling upon humanity, and if the wrath of God hasn’t yet fallen upon humanity, the obvious conclusion is that Christ is still bearing our sins. On the cross He suffered, once for all, the punishment for the sins He was bearing. This is what distinguishes the moment of the cross from the period of mediation which preceded and succeeded the cross.


What I asked was, Were sins blotted out at Christ’s ascension? In this case, whose sins were blotted out?


Red heifer and sin offerings obviously were related to the daily service. Among the feasts, only the day of atonement is directly related to the process of atonement for sin.

There were two services related to the atonement of sin – the daily service, in the first apartment, and the yearly service, in the second apartment. Paul says that (Heb. 9:1-7) and there is no denying that. The question is, Since the priests "serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary" (8:5), what did the ministry in the first apartment typify, and what did the ministry in the second apartment typify?

Please notice that, as I have already pointed out, the daily service was prominently a MEDIATORIAL service, while the ritual of the Day of Atonement was prominently a JUDGMENT service.


And you are failing to perceive what the text implies. The text speaks about a JUDGMENT, with books open and everything else, and of course God doesn’t need a judgment for His own benefit, since He obviously already knows who is who. You want me to believe that He makes a judgment for the benefit of the universe but then passes judgment in favor of some anonymous people called “saints” whose identity only He knows. What kind of judgment is that? Certainly one which doesn’t enlighten anyone.


Because a certain group is singularized, this doesn’t at all mean they are the only ones to be resurrected. So it’s not really difficult to harmonize this part of Revelation with the rest of the Bible. Your real problem is not being able to harmonize Revelation with your view about the judgment.
You raise a number of questions related to Revelation. If you would like to discuss them, it would be interesting to open a new thread about this.


The altar of the temple was on earth, therefore the temple was inaugurated at the moment the Victim was offered on the altar.
There was no presentation of blood inside the temple for Passover or Wavesheaf. They required just burnt offerings.


If the fulfillment of some feasts was a punctiliar event, this doesn’t mean the fulfillment of all the feasts must necessarily be so. Pentecost definitely wasn’t a punctiliar event. But the fact is that Passover, Wavesheaf and Pentecost occurred on the exact date of the type, and of course the order of events is important. How could Christ be raised before dying? How could He send the Holy Spirit without dying and being raised?


We believe the IJ because we believe it is the antitype of the work of judgment of the Day of Atonement. Please bear in mind that the judgment of God’s people typified by the Day of Atonement can’t symbolize a judgment at or after Christ’s coming, because people were being judged while the atonement was being made in the sanctuary.

Tall,
This was a very long post. I hope my direct style of writing doesn't offend you. And I'm keeping you in my prayers.

tall, I wish you well.

It seems to me that you are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The sanctuary service was designed to teach truth about the plan of salvation and the character of God. The big picture seems to me to be completely missing.

I'd encourage you to continue studying with Dr. Davidson, if that's possible. I have the greatest respect for him.

Again, I wish you well.


Tom

As long as you don't focus on Tall's announcement, and Tall doesn't focus on it either, of his leaving the church, Tall is more than welcome to continue discussing the topic being discussed in this thread.

Yes, for a few reasons.

1. That is the only way that is directly described for defilement to occur. Now in this case they are the most extreme ones, those for which sacrifice would not be accepted. But it does explain a mechanism which the Bible actually spells out, rather than one that is inferred.

2. Other things are also defiled. Sin taints everything around it but it is especially odious in the presence of God, in the sanctuary where He dwells. Notice these references to defilement. Some of them are for non-death penalty sins, or even uncleaness. Note also that Lev. 16 speaks of all the sin AND uncleanness of the people.



(Lev 15:31) "Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."


(2Ch 36:14) All the officers of the priests and the people likewise were exceedingly unfaithful, following all the abominations of the nations. And they polluted the house of the LORD that he had made holy in Jerusalem.


Contamination of camp and land:

(Psa 106:38) they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.


Num 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:
(Num 5:3) You shall put out both male and female, putting them outside the camp, that they may not defile their camp, in the midst of which I dwell."

(Num 35:34) You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel."


(Deu 21:23) his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance.

(Jer 32:34) They set up their abominations in the house that is called by my name, to defile it.

(Deu 24:4) then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the LORD. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance.
(Jer 2:7) And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in, you defiled my land and made my heritage an abomination.

(Jer 3:1) "If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? You have played the whore with many lovers; and would you return to me? declares the LORD.

(Jer 3:9) Because she took her whoredom lightly, she polluted the land, committing adultery with stone and tree.


People defiling themselves:

(Eze 14:11) that the house of Israel may no more go astray from me, nor defile themselves anymore with all their transgressions, but that they may be my people and I may be their God, declares the Lord GOD."

(Eze 20:31) When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.

Isa 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies; your tongue mutters wickedness.


This defiling of the land, the sanctuary, etc. happened automatically by the presence of wickedness. The people could find forgiveness for sin but this tainting happened immediately as the result of such actions.



There are indications in the texts above that more than just the very serious sins defiled.





Here is the description. He actually cleanses the mercy seat, the holy place and the altar.


Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
Lev 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:


Now Roy Gane in his books Altar Call and Cult and Character actually shows that the sin is seen to be going from the Most Holy FIRST, then out into the holy place and then finally out through the court. In other words it is a description of contamination leaving out through a course of most holy to least holy.



But the text itself is in question because usually the meaning of the term in that context is REMOVAL of sin, bearing away, not bearing on his person.

Moreover you mention that this is “as you see it.” The text does not describe this process as you see it. This is something you are left to infer.

Now as to the point of “anything that the sacrifice touches is holy, how can the altar be defiled?”…the above would explain that. It would also make sense of the fact that something that makes holy DOES NOT defile. It makes holy.



Mediation is based on previous sacrifice and ministration. That is my point. Jesus already paid the ultimate price for our sins. He presented the blood for that sacrifice in God’s presence. That is done. It will never be done again. He now mediates in real time on that basis. But as for heaven the work to cleanse it has already been done:



Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Here Jesus is said to appear in the presence of God. This appearance includes ENTERING and "not offering himself repeatedly as the high priest ENTERS the sanctuary EVERY YEAR."

Now the offering of the high priest every year INCLUDED the entering with blood. So did Jesus' offering. Jesus’ offering, including the entering with blood, was not done "repeatedly". It was done once for all.

Now, what is the timing of this entry and of the cleansing of the heavenly things? Verse 23 is in fact ambiguous as some of our scholars have pointed out.

Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν υποδείγματα των εν τοις ουρανοις τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αυτὰ δὲ τὰ επουράνια κρείττοσιν θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.


καθαριζω (To cleanse) is in the infinitive. The main verb is an assumed “be” verb. The point of the argument doesn’t really require timing. It is arguing that the type requires fulfillment—things must be cleansed with blood. In the OT type the earthly was cleansed with blood. Therefore the heavenly things must be cleansed.

However, this is only one verse in a series of verses that form an argument. And the tenses all around it are all past. The next verse does not indicate a future action. Nor can we jump over verse 24 –27 to look at the future events referenced in verse 28 without dealing with the tenses of those verses and their relation to his previous argument.


Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Verse 24 continues the argument of the preceding section. This is picked up in the English “for”. He is now showing HOW the cleansing occurred, arguing that everything is cleansed with blood, and so was the heavenly. The English “for” is the translation of γαρ.

Jesus went into the true tabernacle, heaven itself, and appeared in God’s presence. This is parallel to the entrance of the high priest into God’s presence once per year. The ENTERED in this case is again past tense, εισηλθεν. This then orients the timing of the entering with blood and associated activities.

Verses 25-26 make this even more clear through day of atonement references:


Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


1. Entered (earlier said to be once for all and with blood)
2. in the presence of God, parallel to the Day of Atonement
3. High Priest, who had a distinctive role on the Day of Atonement
4. Every year, reference to the yearly role
5. blood not his own, the high priest had to do this, but Jesus did not. It refers back direcly to verse 7:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
6. Put away sin.

Here Jesus is directly compared to the yearly offering. He offered HIMSELF as the earthly high priest enters the holy places every year with other blood. He entered in by means of His own blood. Jesus did not just die as the sacrifice but ministered the blood. He ministered it in our behalf. That part of the type is fulfilled.

That is my main issue with the IJ. The type that we say is to be fulfilled in the IJ is the cleansing of the heavenly things. But Hebrews says it already happened. It is not going to happen twice. Jesus entered ONCE into God’s presence by means of His own blood. He already offered the blood of the once for all sacrifice. That is all in the past.




All sin was dealt with at the ascension on a corporate level. Individual benefit happen in real time. Therefore the author could say that Jesus made purification for sins in chapter 1 and that he put away sin in chapter 9, and that he “forever made perfect those who are being made holy” in chapter 10. But then he can also speak of real time benefits to this completed process:


Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)


Here we see an illustration built on the water of cleansing, earlier referenced in the red heifer statement.

The sacrifice was made ahead of time for the water of cleansing. But people would come and benefit as they had need.



I think you are missing the point. There is no later sacrifice. He already ministered the blood. He already entered into God’s presence. There is no other time for blood to be used because it was presented and accepted.

When for instance was the blood for the sacrifice of the feast of unleavened bread offered?

It could NOT have been offered at the time as Jesus was not ascended yet. It was offered at the same time as the blood for every other sacrifice because there was only ONE sacrifice. The type is the blood. It is not books. More on this to come.



All of the sacrifices were reminders of the one sacrifice of Christ. The day of atonement represented the ministration of blood in God’s presence for the defiling of the temple of corporate guilt, from what I can tell. The scape goat is never outlined in the NT, so I can’t really say.



Yes, but I do not agree with this entirely. The judgement of the day of atonement occurred for those who did not follow the prescriptions for the feast. It was not inherent in the actual cleansing types themselves. The types did not have INVESTIGATION of the blood or the the sins. It just had cleansing by blood in God’s presence.

The judgment part was based on the response of the people to what was done for them. Those who did not follow the prescriptions and afflict themselves and who neglected their salvation were cut off. In the same way those who do not heed their salvation and the work done by Christ are cut off, as the author also notes:


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.





No I am suggesting that the heavenly intelligences can see WHO is being persecuted and BY whom they are being persecuted. And God intervenes to bring justice by bringing the little horn to an end. He is judging the little horn, not His people.



A. It states who will be in the resurrection. It is not who we say. And it says THE REST OF THE DEAD WILL NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL….that does in fact rule out others.

B. The second group is all the dead small and great and some appear to be in the book and some don’t.

C. Yes, perhaps another thread would be in order, but frankly I have bigger issues to look at right now, and will likely have to get to that later. I have no problems with the idea of Revelation presenting a great throne judgment that all appear before as it makes sense of the NT texts regarding giving an account to God and appearing before the judgment seat.



A. As to the burnt offering, the general description of a burnt offering in Lev. 1 seems to indicate a presentation of blood. So does the burnt offering in connection with the anointing of the Priests and the temple in Leviticus 9. But in general you may well be right. I could not find an indication of the presentation of blood for the daily burnt offering. Therefore, unless it was handled in the same way as the burnt offering of the individual, there may be none.

B. As to the inauguration though that is not what the text indicates. The inauguration had a lot of sprinkling of blood on all the items in the temple. It was not inaugurated just by the sacrifice.

In any case, my larger point is that the timing of the earthly CANNOT be reproduced in the heavenly because of the radical departure of having one sacrifice take in all the sacrifices:

This fairly cheesy picture that I drew up illustrates the point. The once for all sacrifice already happened. The once for all entrance happened. The entering into God’s presence happened, by means of Jesus blood, in comparison to the yearly service. Hebrews also speaks of the daily being fulfilled. The point is that Jesus already offered the sacrifice and presented the blood. That part of the type of EVERY sacrifice is already done. It won’t be happening again.










The problem is that there was only one time that Jesus entered by means of His blood. That part of the type is done. The scape goat we do not know because it is not spelled out. It may yet have a fulfillment that correlates to the date. But I cannot reject what Hebrews says in day of atonement language. That part of the type is fulfilled. They type of cleansing was a ministration of blood by the High Priest in God’s presence, and that is what Hebrews describes.

As to the later ones not being a punctiliar event, that is up to you to demonstrate why the spring are and the fall are not.



You have read in judgment and investigation when the text says cleansing.



Thank you for your prayers. No, I am not offended by the length or the tone. It is better to get all these things out in a clear manner. That is not offensive in the least.

I am sorry I forgot about this for a while due to discussions other places and other issues I was looking into. And I want to thank you again for taking time to discuss these things. I appreciate it. I have learned a lot in this investigation though I cannot agree completely with the church on these things.

Here is another clarification on my views regarding the day of atonement type of cleansing




Adventists say that the Investigative Judgment is the cleansing of the heavenly record books. They see this as the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type of cleansing the sanctuary by blood in Leviticus 16.

But was the type about books?

Or was the type about blood?

Read for yourself:

Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil
Lev 16:13 and put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die.
Lev 16:14 And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.
Lev 16:18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.

Did you see in that text a description of someone pouring over books in judgment? I didn't.

What was there?

There was a presentation of blood in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place, where the blood was brought right to the ark where God dwelt.

Cleansing was made for the holy things.

Now when we look for the fulfillment of this type what should we be looking for? Books or blood?

Obviously we should be looking for blood brought into God's presence for the purpose of cleansing and atonement. And that is what we find in Hebrews:


Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Jesus fulfilled the type at His ascension. We have been misinterpreting the type to support an investigative judgment in 1844. We made it about books and judgment. But it was about blood and atonement for sin.

Note also this text, in close proximity:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


The true fulfillment of the type was already spelled out.

There may be a reason for your viewing it this way. The transfer of sin issue is not in any way my primary objection to the Sanctuary doctrine. Daryl started this due to a thread in another forum that went through a number of issues, of which this is part.

Since he started the thread and wanted my input in it I agreed. But I hope you do not believe this is the issue that caused me to leave. The bigger issue which I raised some here, is that the type of the cleansing of the sanctuary is fulfilled in my view at Jesus' ascension.

This has wide ranging implications for our sanctuary view, as well as for EGW who endorsed it repeatedly.

I am more than open to, either this topic being expanded to discuss the bigger issue, or a new topic created to discuss the bigger issue.

I disagree. Since at the end of this service both the priest and the people were without sin (at least for some minutes), which sins were these? These were the sins which had just been atoned for. And if they had just been atoned for, they can't be the unconfessed sins, for there is no atonement for unconfessed sins.


I haven’t read the book, but I seem to disagree with Roy Gane’s opinion. Sins didn’t leave out the sanctuary passing from one piece of furniture to another, or from one apartment to another. Sins left out the sanctuary through the priest, who confessed them on the head of the scapegoat.


I disagree. As Angel Rodriguez says, “in the context of atonement, holiness and sin, life and death, purity and impurity, are brought together in an unfathomable, paradoxical relation.”
You will observe that the person who took the flesh of the sin offering outside the camp to burn it was to wash his clothes and bathe his body before returning to the camp (Lev. 16:27, 18). Also, the ashes of the red heifer were mixed with water and sprinkled on a person to cleanse him/her (Num. 19: 11-13). Yet, the person who did the sprinkling was contaminated (verse 21). So the water at the same time cleansed and defiled.


The sacrifice which made the purification of sin possible was already done. This doesn’t mean we are already purified from sin.


Tall, I’m not understanding why you question the church’s position on this point. Of course you agree Jesus did not sprinkle His literal blood in heaven to present it. The presentation of His blood in heaven is symbolic. He presented His sacrifice as a basis for our salvation, and God accepted it. Ellen White says this happened just after His resurrection (DA 790.3).
But this does not mean He didn’t continue to present His blood in His daily intercession for the forgiveness of our sins (symbolized by the daily ministry), and that He doesn't present it as the basis for our forgiveness on the occasion of our judgment (symbolized by the yearly ministry). Or do you question that?


The very text you quoted says:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

This is how the classical commentators interpret this verse:

Barnes - Now to appear in the presence of God for us - As the Jewish high priest appeared before the shekinah, the symbol of the divine presence in the tabernacle, so Christ appears before God himself in our behalf in heaven. He has gone to plead for our salvation; to present the merits of his blood as a permanent reason why we should be saved; Rom_8:34 note; Heb_7:25 note.

Clarke - And hence we may consider that Christ, appearing in his crucified body before the throne, is a real offering of himself to the Divine justice in behalf of man; and that there he continues in the constant act of being offered, so that every penitent and believer, coming unto God through him, find him their ever ready and available sacrifice, officiating as the High Priest of mankind in the presence of God.

Gill - Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance;

James, Fausset and Brown, quoting Delitzsch and Alford - “It is enough that Jesus should show Himself for us to the Father: the sight of Jesus satisfied God in our behalf. He brings before the face of God no offering which has exhausted itself, and, as only sufficing for a time, needs renewal; but He himself is in person, by virtue of the eternal Spirit, that is, the imperishable life of His person, now and for ever freed from death, our eternally present offering before God” [Delitzsch in Alford].

Matthew Henry Concise Commentary - but Jesus Christ, by one sacrifice, has destroyed the works of the devil, that believers may be made righteous, holy, and happy. As no wisdom, learning, virtue, wealth, or power, can keep one of the human race from death, so nothing can deliver a sinner from being condemned at the day of judgment, except the atoning sacrifice of Christ;

Vincent’s Word Studies - Now, not only in contrast with the time of the old, typical economy, but also implying a continually-present manifestation, for us, now, as at his first entrance into the heavenly sanctuary.

Jesus was crucified once, but He is an eternal offering.


It doesn’t. What it says is just that Jesus doesn’t need to be offered every year in order to minister His own blood, for His sacrifice has an eternal efficacy.


Were all sins blotted out? Did they cease to exist? How were they purified?


How can being afflicted for sin be a mere prescription? More to follow.


Physical persecution by the little horn has been limited to just some phases of the existence of the church; spiritual opposition occurs most of the time, which makes the really persecuted ones much less obvious. Heavenly intelligences are not omniscient, nor can they read the heart.


The sacrifice part of all the feasts was fulfilled at the cross. The ministration of blood occurs in heaven as it is needed. As long as there is sin, there is the need for the ministration of blood. Blood was needed every day and every year for atonement, but it could only be obtained by killing an animal – so animals had to be killed every day and every year. Jesus’ blood also is needed every day for mediation and on the occasion of the judgment. But Jesus doesn’t need to be killed repeated times because His blood is efficacious for ever.


Not all the spring are, that’s the point. Pentecost was not punctiliar.


All the israelites were judged by God on the day of atonement as to the genuineness of their experience. God considered only the sincerely contrite as part of His people. But this judgment occurred while the atonement was being made in the sanctuary; while the atonement lasted, you could still repent and be forgiven. This does not harmonize with a judgment at or after Christ’s coming.


Leviticus 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on this same day shall be cut off from his people.
On the day of atonement there was a separation – the sincere ones were distinguished from the insincere ones.

Doesn't the cleansing of the sanctuary represent the work of cleansing that is done prior to Jesus' Second Coming? You must not think this is what it means, if you think it was fulfilled at Jesus' ascension. So your whole view of eschatology in general must be different than the SDA view, it would seem to me.

I am going to address this in two different parts. The first deals with the transfer of sin issue. It will probably be my last on that note since it is not to me the key issue, though I do think it is hard to prove the Adventist transfer by the text.

The second deals with the day of atonement type which to me is the bigger issue.





Yeah, I actually edited that myself since on later reflection it didn't make sense, but it appears you were already answering at the time.

However, the other texts I posted did indicate that less severe sins also could defile.



The sins are cleansed in order from most holy to holy to courtyard.

Either way, you may want to read the book since Gane is the foremost Adventist expert on the question and has studied it under the leading world expert on the question. I found his book “Cult and Character” though I disagreed with parts of it, to be a very interesting read. The more popularized one “Altar Call” is available free online if you just want the gist of it with a lot of devotional application. But I would suggest the other. You can get it on inter-library loan.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/altar/index.htm



You are trying to make an argument regarding the sin offering based on other offerings. But the sin offering was disposed of in a CLEAN place, and is not said to have required the priest to wash:


Lev 4:12 all the rest of the bull--he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, to the ash heap, and shall burn it up on a fire of wood. On the ash heap it shall be burned up


And the blood was cleaned in a holy place, which would not be done for an unclean object.