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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93549
12/17/07 05:45 PM
12/17/07 05:45 PM
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OP
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Matthew
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Matthew
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew
25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke
13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93550
12/17/07 05:47 PM
12/17/07 05:47 PM
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TE: I find it very ironic that you are "offended" because my idea of God's wrath is not vengeful enough for you ....
MM: What did I post that gave you this impression?
TE: You appear to have the mistaken impression that if the wrath of God is as is being here described, that this would somehow make God soft on sin.
MM: What did I post that gave you this impression?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#93551
12/17/07 05:48 PM
12/17/07 05:48 PM
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There was another point I wanted to make about this, which is that if you look at the life of Christ, you see that when He wasn't wanted, He simply departed. When asked to rain fire from heaven, according to the mistaken idea that his disciples had (and you as well(?)) He replied that they did not know what spirit they were of in desiring this.
When we look at the life of Christ, we see clearly that He was non-violent.
According to Ellen White, "all that man can know" about God was revealed in the life and teachings of Christ during His earthly ministry. Where do we see the picture you have in mind of God? We don't. Anywhere. Tom, do you agree that the following passages describe God killing people with fire? Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Numbers 11:1 And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp. Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. 16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. 2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. 1:11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly. 1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. NOTE: Compare the fire above with the fire below: Leviticus 9:24 And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: [which] when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces. 1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93571
12/17/07 08:23 PM
12/17/07 08:23 PM
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MM, you have made posts in the past state that God was "bloodthirsty" and "vengeful." I had these in mind, not anything you posted in this particular thread.
I don't see that you responded to my posts.
I seen many of your posts that don't seem to be making any points, so I have nothing to respond to.
Rather than start a new thread on this topic, couldn't we just bring up the old one? That would be a lot easier, as it would have the Scripture texts, SOP texts, etc. already there.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#93587
12/17/07 11:32 PM
12/17/07 11:32 PM
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Tom, please reference a quote where I say God is "bloodthirsty".
Also, I have posted dozen of inspired quotes describe the wrath of vengeance of God. Have you nothing to say about them?
Romans
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93589
12/17/07 11:42 PM
12/17/07 11:42 PM
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Tom, do you agree that the following passages describe God killing people with fire?
Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Numbers
11:1 And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp.
Numbers
16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
16:46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
2 Kings
1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
1:11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
NOTE: Compare the fire above with the fire below:
Leviticus
9:24 And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: [which] when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.
1 Kings
18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench. MM: Tom, this is the third or forth time I've posted these quotes and questions. Please, give me an answer. Actually, I already know your answer. But I was unable to find it on MSDAOL. What I really want to know is if you've changed your mind. Do you still believe God Himself used fire to kill people?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93603
12/18/07 01:26 AM
12/18/07 01:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Tom, please reference a quote where I say God is "bloodthirsty".
Also, I have posted dozen of inspired quotes describe the wrath of vengeance of God. Have you nothing to say about them? I've moved and don't have my quotes of yours readily available, I'm sorry. However, perhaps you can find it if you search for it. You should know what you had in mind by bloodthirsty. Also, I've quoted it for you before. I had the quotes you mentioned in mind in what I wrote. What did you think I was talking about? What I wrote was for the purpose of explaining what God's wrath and vengeance are. I'm a bit confused how you could read what I wrote and not get that. Regarding God's killing people with fire, or in any other way, I note that one of the commands states: Thou shall not kill. (Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17) I also note that Christ was the express image of the Father, and that all that we can know about God was revealed by Him. I don't recall Him killing anyone. However, I do recall that He was asked specifically what He thought about the idea of killing people with fire, and His response was: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9:55, 56) I think Jesus was right.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#93672
12/20/07 08:58 PM
12/20/07 08:58 PM
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It sounds like you've changed your mind. I remember you saying you believe the fire that killed people in the quotes I posted above came from God. What makes you think God didn't kill them with fire?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93681
12/21/07 05:50 AM
12/21/07 05:50 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Why do you think I changed my mind? When Jesus was urged to destroy those who were rejecting Him with fire, He replied, "You know not of what spirit you are. The Son of Man came not to destroy man's lives, but to save them."
I doubt I'm going to continue this conversation, as we've discussed this at length in the past. I don't know anyone who believes in penal substitution who doesn't believe God kills. That's probably not possible. However, I know quite a few who don't believe in penal substitution, and yet believe that God kills. So probably just discussing penal substitution is sufficient.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#93701
12/21/07 04:28 PM
12/21/07 04:28 PM
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Wait a minute. Please state your position clearly. Do you believe God used fire in the passages I quoted to kill sinners? A simple yes or no will suffice.
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