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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93869
12/26/07 10:06 PM
12/26/07 10:06 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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By the way, nice to see you're back. Hope you had a nice Christmas.
Is baptism optional? I would say in the same way that baptism is or is not optional, the slaying of the sacrifices was or was not. I'm really not understanding your difficulty in understanding what I wrote. I wouldn't think you would believe anything different from what I wrote. That is, I doubt we have any difference of opinion on this point.
To clarify, you don't believe there was any merit in the animal sacrifices, correct? The merit is in Christ alone. However, these sacrifices witness to the faith the offerers of the sacrifice have in Christ, similar to how our faith in Christ is attested to by baptism or communion.
We are saved by faith, not by works, but our works will attest to our faith.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Tom]
#93887
12/27/07 05:31 PM
12/27/07 05:31 PM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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Yes, Christmas has been good. Hope you had a merry one, too.
So, if I read you right, you believe slaying an animal was optional for Jews. They could obtain pardon for their sins without slaying an animal.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93893
12/27/07 06:05 PM
12/27/07 06:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Tom]
#93897
12/27/07 09:38 PM
12/27/07 09:38 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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No.
Does this mean you believe Jews could not obtain pardon without slaying an animal?
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Tom]
#93898
12/27/07 09:38 PM
12/27/07 09:38 PM
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OP
SDA
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No.
Does this mean you believe Jews could not obtain pardon without slaying an animal?
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93901
12/27/07 10:36 PM
12/27/07 10:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Given that I wrote the following: Is baptism optional? I would say in the same way that baptism is or is not optional, the slaying of the sacrifices was or was not. I'm really not understanding your difficulty in understanding what I wrote. I wouldn't think you would believe anything different from what I wrote. That is, I doubt we have any difference of opinion on this point. and given that you don't think baptism is optional, why do you think I think the animal sacrifices were optional?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93902
12/27/07 10:38 PM
12/27/07 10:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, I wrote this: As Paul points out in Hebrews, the blood of animals was never sufficient for the taking away of sins. Only the blood of Christ can accomplish this. However, the offering of sacrifices in their time, like communion in ours, testified to the faith the offerers of the sacrifice had in Christ. which seems to me like it should answer your question. Do you disagree with what I wrote? (quoted)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Tom]
#93917
12/28/07 01:42 AM
12/28/07 01:42 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM: Does this mean you believe Jews could not obtain pardon without slaying an animal?
TE: ... why do you think I think the animal sacrifices were optional?
MM: What?
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93925
12/28/07 02:53 AM
12/28/07 02:53 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't know how to answer the question better than I already have. Let me ask again if you disagree with this: As Paul points out in Hebrews, the blood of animals was never sufficient for the taking away of sins. Only the blood of Christ can accomplish this. However, the offering of sacrifices in their time, like communion in ours, testified to the faith the offerers of the sacrifice had in Christ. If there's something here you disagree with, we can discuss it. If you agree with this, then there shouldn't be any question.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Penal Substitution Biblical?
[Re: Tom]
#93972
12/29/07 03:24 AM
12/29/07 03:24 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Before we switch gears, please answer my question plainly. Were Jews required to kill an animal to obtain forgiveness? Yes or no, please.
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