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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93903
12/27/07 10:42 PM
12/27/07 10:42 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No to both questions.

Do you kill sinners first, and then have mercy on them? Or have mercy on them first, and then kill them?

It's funny that you apparently don't see that you are believing things which are mutually exclusive. That you say things like this:

 Quote:
Killing sinners is right. Mercy and forgiveness is right, too.


should be an alert to consider if there might be something that's not fitting in your paradigm.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93904
12/27/07 10:57 PM
12/27/07 10:57 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
BTW, that was Jesus giving the commands in the OT. Let's not forget that. If there's a contradiction, Jesus was contradicting Himself!


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: asygo] #93905
12/27/07 11:14 PM
12/27/07 11:14 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Another thing I want to settle early on is this:
 Quote:
Many who claim to believe and to teach the gospel are in a similar error. They set aside the Old Testament Scriptures, of which Christ declared, "They are they which testify of Me." John 5:39. In rejecting the Old, they virtually reject the New; for both are parts of an inseparable whole. No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears. {COL 128.2}

So, there cannot be a dichotomy between the OT and NT. If there's a discrepancy or contradiction, it means that we are misunderstanding either the OT or NT or both. God does not contradict Himself, but we often misunderstand what He means.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: asygo] #93906
12/27/07 11:16 PM
12/27/07 11:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It really doesn't matter who it was, since when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.

The contradiction is between how God was perceived in the OT, and what He is really like. Jesus came in the flesh to rectify these errors.

Even the holy angels, before Christ's mission on earth, had things they didn't understand, so it's no surprise that we get things about the Old Testament confused.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93907
12/27/07 11:20 PM
12/27/07 11:20 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
So, there cannot be a dichotomy between the OT and NT. If there's a discrepancy or contradiction, it means that we are misunderstanding either the OT or NT or both. God does not contradict Himself, but we often misunderstand what He means.


Of course God does not contradict Himself. The fault has to lie with our misunderstanding. Only one person understood that Old Testament correctly, which was Jesus Christ. In Him we see what the truth looks like. As I pointed out in the previous post, even holy angels had things they were confused about until Christ came here in the flesh, so again, it's no surprise that we weren't getting it.

It we see differences between what we see in the Old Testament God and what we see in Christ, that's a sign that we're misunderstanding something. Anything recorded in the Old Testament about God we should be able to see in Christ, or we're missing something, since Christ was a complete revelation of God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93909
12/27/07 11:57 PM
12/27/07 11:57 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Don't forget the possibility that we can misunderstand Christ. It has happened before.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: asygo] #93911
12/28/07 01:24 AM
12/28/07 01:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
The serpent accused God of being untrustworthy and Eve of being naive....

This is the foundation of all sin: the lie that God is untrustworthy, the lie that God is not altogether loving and that he doesn't have our best interests in mind. Adam and Eve came under the grip of this deceptive picture of God. At that moment they stopped trusting God as their source of life. Consequently, they saw themselves as deficient.


 Quote:

A faulty picture of God led to an ungodly evaluation that in turn brought about a rebellious action...The lie created an emptiness as well as the futile and rebellious means of filling it. A false concept of God, and therefore of herself, gave birth to sinful behavior, which in turn brought about spiritual and physical death.

This is not merely an account of what happened a long time ago. It's our own story. Under the bondage of the serpent's life, we try to achieve through our own efforts what God wants to freely give us.


 Quote:
To the extent that the God we envision is less than all-loving, gracious, kind, and altogether on our side, we can't trust him with our whole being....

Just as the foundation of all that separates us from God is a false picture of God, so too the foundation of all that restores our innocent communion with God is a true picture of God. So everything hangs on the question, Where do we find the true picture of God? That answer that the Bible unequivocally and emphatically gives is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the truth that dispels the serpent's lie.


 Quote:
When God thinks, John is saying, it is Jesus. And when God expresses Himself, it is Jesus....

Whereas the enemy covered up the true God in a veil of deceptive darkness that brought death, Jesus turns the light on so we can see who God really is. In doing this, Jesus gives life.


 Quote:
In Christ we see the glory of God (see 2 Cor 3:18-4:6; 1 Jn 1:1-3). In Christ the previously concealed God has been unambiguously revealed. In Christ the serpent's lie is dispelled....

To know Jesus is to know the Father, and to see Jesus is to see the Father. It's that simple.


These quotes are from the book "Is God to Blame" by Greg Boyd.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93913
12/28/07 01:32 AM
12/28/07 01:32 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Christ revealed himself to their souls. Divinity flashed through humanity, and they returned so filled with this one thought, so charmed with the ideas he had presented, that when the leaders of Israel inquired, "Why have ye not brought him?" they replied, "Never man spake like this man." They had seen that which priests and rulers would not see,--humanity flooded with the light and glory of divinity.

Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father.

In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. (ST 1/29/90)


These last two posts bring out what I've been trying to communicate.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93918
12/28/07 01:49 AM
12/28/07 01:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
No to both questions.

Do you kill sinners first, and then have mercy on them? Or have mercy on them first, and then kill them?

It's funny that you apparently don't see that you are believing things which are mutually exclusive. That you say things like this:

 Quote:
Killing sinners is right. Mercy and forgiveness is right, too.


should be an alert to consider if there might be something that's not fitting in your paradigm.

So, you're not excusing God's order to kill the sabbath breaker. Does that mean you agree with it, that it was right for God to order his execution, that it was right not to be merciful and offer him forgiveness?

And, you also agree Jesus did not misreperesent God in the OT. Does that mean you agree with the laws Jesus established in the OT, that you think the "eye for an eye" principle correctly represents the character of God?

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #93919
12/28/07 01:55 AM
12/28/07 01:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Earlier on this thread someone questioned whether God considered us guilty of sinning if we were ignorant of it. Here is the answer: "Though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity."

Leviticus
17And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

18And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

19It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

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