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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94069
12/31/07 06:57 PM
12/31/07 06:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: What do you think this means?
MM: It was Jesus, not Moses, who created the laws regulating divorce. Moses merely repeated what Jesus said. While here in the flesh, Jesus corrected Jewish perversions of the laws He Himself created, laws which take into account the fact sinners are hardhearted. I'm not following you here. Jesus said that because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses permitted them to divorce their wives. He then explained what the true ideal was. The Israelites were a backward, ignorant, stubborn people. God graciously accommodated them in their ignorance and recalcitrance. However, when Christ came in the flesh, we see the truth about God in full splendor. As EGW puts it: But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.
In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 21, 22) If you're trying to find out what God is like, and the kingdom of God, by focusing on Israel, you're focusing in the wrong place! "Turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus." To address you sabbath question, I see it as being like the laws regarding divorce. God's character was revealed by Christ. Christ did not reveal God as a killer, but as One who loves His enemies, and forgives: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94097
01/01/08 06:35 PM
01/01/08 06:35 PM
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OP
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TE: I'm not following you here. The angel said, "before the light comes, THERE IS NO SIN, for there is no light for them to reject." (emphasis mine).
MM: People who are unfamiliar with the truths regulating sabbath observance are indeed guilty of breaking the sabbath. "Though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity." God does not hold them accountable because Jesus paid their sin debt of death. Once people become aware of sabbath keeping they are required to repent of their former transgressions. The fact they are required to kill an animal is evidence they are guilty of sinning.
Leviticus
5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94098
01/01/08 06:35 PM
01/01/08 06:35 PM
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Tom, if ordering Moses to kill the sabbath breaker was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus command it?
Was it because Moses was chomping at the bit to kill him, thus Jesus gave in and commanded it?
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94116
01/01/08 11:29 PM
01/01/08 11:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I think we're just going back and forth here. I've answered your Sabbath question quite a number of times, and it keeps coming back. My position is that the life and character of Jesus Christ, during His ministry on earth, was a full and complete revelation of God's character. When Jesus said, you have heard it said, "eye for eye and tooth for tooth, BUT I say unto you, turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give the shirt off your back, love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you" He was enunciating a superior principle, one based on agape as opposed to eros. Agape is better than eros. Agape is divine. Eros is not. The principles of the Kingdom of God, expressed by Christ, are better than the principles used to run human governments. Israel was not the ideal. Christ was (and is) the ideal. Going to the Old Testament to supplement the message of Christ regarding who God is, is a sure way of getting Christ's message wrong. God does not hold them accountable because Jesus paid their sin debt of death. Then why didn't God hold Lucifer accountable for his ignorance?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Tom]
#94134
01/02/08 06:26 PM
01/02/08 06:26 PM
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TE: Then why didn't God hold Lucifer accountable for his ignorance?
MM: Because he wasn't guilty of sinning.
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94135
01/02/08 06:28 PM
01/02/08 06:28 PM
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PP 407
Enraged at this decision, he cursed the judge, and in the heat of passion blasphemed the name of God. He was immediately brought before Moses. The command had been given, "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 21:17); but no provision had been made to meet this case. So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained. God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death. Those who had been witness to the sin placed their hands upon his head, thus solemnly testifying to the truth of the charge against him. Then they threw the first stones, and the people who stood by afterward joined in executing the sentence. {PP 407.5}
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94137
01/02/08 06:56 PM
01/02/08 06:56 PM
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TE: The principles of the Kingdom of God, expressed by Christ, are better than the principles used to run human governments. Israel was not the ideal. Christ was (and is) the ideal.
EGW: The Lord chose a people and made them the depositories of His truth. It was His purpose that by the revelation of His character through Israel, men should be drawn to Him. To all the world the gospel invitation was to be given. Through the teaching of the sacrificial service, Christ was to be uplifted before the nations, and all who would look unto Him should live. {8T 25.3}
EGW: Instead of linking himself with the greatness of Egypt, [Moses] chose to bind up his life with God's purpose. Instead of giving laws to Egypt, he by divine direction enacted laws for the world. He became God's instrument in giving to men those principles that are the safeguard alike of the home and of society, that are the cornerstone of the prosperity of nations--principles recognized today by the world's greatest men as the foundation of all that is best in human governments. {Ed 68.4}
EGW: The children of Israel were to occupy all the territory which God appointed them. Those nations that rejected the worship and service of the true God were to be dispossessed. But it was God's purpose that by the revelation of His character through Israel men should be drawn unto Him. To all the world the gospel invitation was to be given. Through the teaching of the sacrificial service Christ was to be uplifted before the nations, and all who would look unto Him should live. All who, like Rahab the Canaanite, and Ruth the Moabitess, turned from idolatry to the worship of the true God, were to unite themselves with His chosen people. As the numbers of Israel increased they were to enlarge their borders, until their kingdom should embrace the world. {COL 290.1}
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94140
01/02/08 07:03 PM
01/02/08 07:03 PM
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PP 705, 706
But "when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his rashness; and there he died by the ark of God." A sudden terror fell upon the rejoicing throng. David was astonished and greatly alarmed, and in his heart he questioned the justice of God… The fate of Uzzah was a divine judgment upon the violation of a most explicit command. {PP 705}
Upon Uzzah rested the greater guilt of presumption. Transgression of God's law had lessened his sense of its sacredness, and with unconfessed sins upon him he had, in face of the divine prohibition, presumed to touch the symbol of God's presence. God can accept no partial obedience, no lax way of treating His commandments. By the judgment upon Uzzah He designed to impress upon all Israel the importance of giving strict heed to His requirements. Thus the death of that one man, by leading the people to repentance, might prevent the necessity of inflicting judgments upon thousands. {PP 705.3}
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94141
01/02/08 08:01 PM
01/02/08 08:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: Then why didn't God hold Lucifer accountable for his ignorance?
MM: Because he wasn't guilty of sinning. How do you figure? The Lord gave him an opportunity to "confess his sin." What sin was this?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning?
[Re: Tom]
#94142
01/02/08 08:07 PM
01/02/08 08:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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When you quote things from EGW with no comment, I can't respond, since I can't read your mind. It's particularly bad from to quote something by me, and then something by EGW with no comment. It's also bad form for you to ask me questions, and then answer them for me.
If you wish to continue a discussion, you should quit doing these things, specifically the last two.
Make points, ask questions, and so forth. If you quote Ellen White, please offer some comment, so I can respond to whatever point you're wishing to make.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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