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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93900
12/27/07 10:34 PM
12/27/07 10:34 PM
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GC 36 explains one of the methods God uses to punish and destroy sinners. But it doesn't explain the other ways. Hmm. I already answered this, but I don't see my answer. You have a duplicate post and I have a disappeared post. Consider in Numbers where it says that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites because of their complaining. Some, or many, of the Israelites died because of this. From Scripture, we would understand that God killed the Israelites, using snakes. But that's not what happened. Similarly, we look at the destruction of Jerusalem, and from Scripture we see that God is portrayed as killing those who rejected His Son in more than one place. But that's not what happened. In both cases, what actually happened is that God withdrew His protection. We see this same model in Scripture, of which I've quoted many texts to you in the past, so I won't repeat that here. Ok, so the basic question is, what hermaneutic (that is, theological rule) do we use for understanding the principle Ellen White is setting forth. There are two possibilities: 1)The principle she laid out is a general principle, which can be applied to other cases. 2)We should consider each incident in Scripture on a case by case basis. If Scripture says that God killed someone, then God killed them (unless the Spirit of Prophecy revises that, like in the case of the snakes and the destruction of Jerusalem. I just can't make any sense out of 2). I don't see how the principle that we accept what Scripture says, unless Ellen White says something different than Scripture, can possibly be right. It seems much more likely that Ellen White is giving us a principle whereby we can better understand Scripture as a whole. IOW, it's not a case by case thing, but a general principle thing. That's one point, probably the second most important. The most important thing is God's character. This is the issue of issues. This is what the Great Controversy is all about. The primary reason Christ came was to reveal God's character. When Christ comes again, the message that will prepare His coming is the message of God's character of love. (I've quoted these to you before many times as well, so I'll skip it, but can supply the quotes if you want). So what is God's character like? Jesus answered that question when He said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The truth is that God is, in reality, like Jesus Christ in the flesh was. Jesus was not putting on a show, acting different than normal, but was simply being Himself, or, more accurately, being God's self, since Christ did nothing of Himself but revealed the Father in all that He said and did. So in Christ, we see the truth about God. Not a partial truth that needs to be supplemented by wrath and violence imported from the Old Testament or anywhere else, but the whole truth, a complete revelation. When I first read the statement from the SOP that all that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son, that had a profound impact on me. In particular, the word "all" surprised me. All that I can know about God is what I see revealed in Christ. What an amazing thought! It brings life to the suggestion that it would be good for us to spend a thoughtful hour each day meditating on the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. As we do so, we learn about God. In addition to God's character, closely related we have His government, and the principles by which His government is run. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us in a number of places that force is not a principle of God's government. When we look at Christ's life, we see that Christ did not use force, we see the truth about EGW's statement about the principles of God's government. Now fire coming down from heaven and destroying people, or water coming upon people and drowning them, is violence, no matter how you slice it. Throwing in the word "justice" does not change the reality of the situation. People were violently killed. Over 1,000 incidents of violence are attributed to God in the Old Testament. But in the New we see that Jesus was totally non-violent, or, better yet, anti-violent, preferring the death of the cross to violence. So how to we reconcile these things? It's easy if we recognize the truth, which is that violence is of the devil. It's a by-product of sin. It's foreign to God, foreign to His character, and foreign to His government. Once we recognize this it's easy to see that the only explanation which makes sense is the one that EGW provided in "The Great Controversy". Understanding the truth about violence would allow us to correct interpret these stories without her having written a word.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93920
12/28/07 02:08 AM
12/28/07 02:08 AM
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OP
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GC 36 explains one of the methods God uses to punish and destroy sinners. But it doesn't explain the other ways. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands is exercised by evil angels when He permits.
GC 614 A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Tom, even if you were right, even if God simply withdrew His protection and allowed Satan to send fire from the most holy place and destoy Nadab and Abihu, we still have the fact it was God who did something that resulted in killing sinners. How does that make God less culpable? It reminds me of someone releasing a pack of mad dogs in order to kill people, and then ordering the parents not to mourn their death.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93924
12/28/07 02:49 AM
12/28/07 02:49 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Tom, even if you were right, even if God simply withdrew His protection and allowed Satan to send fire from the most holy place and destoy Nadab and Abihu, we still have the fact it was God who did something that resulted in killing sinners. How does that make God less culpable? Let's say you have a son, and he wants to do drugs. For awhile, you keep him at home, not allowing him out of his room, with no access to drugs. You warn him of the dangers of drugs. You do all you can to convince him not to use them. Eventually you allow your son to do what he wants to do. He chooses to do drugs. He dies as a result. This is one scenario. The second scenario is you catch your son doing drugs, and get angry at him, and stab him with a knife and kill him. Are you equally culpable in both scenarios? It reminds me of someone releasing a pack of mad dogs in order to kill people, and then ordering the parents not to mourn their death. It's too bad that you look at things in this way. It's like you can only look at what happened in a way that God is doing something bad. Either He is doing the killing Himself, or He is releasing a pack of mad dogs. I reject both of your scenarios. God was acting like Jesus Christ did. Here's a perfect example: 54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9) What did Jesus do when He was rejected? He "went to another village." This is what God does when He is rejected. He departs, leaving the one rejecting him to his own devices.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#93971
12/29/07 03:20 AM
12/29/07 03:20 AM
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OP
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The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands is exercised by evil angels when He permits. God is in control. He takes responsibility. He decides when we reap what we sow. In the lake of fire, He decides when sinners die. They suffer in proportion to their sinfulness.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#93995
12/30/07 02:54 PM
12/30/07 02:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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The biggest weakness of your position I see, MM, is that it makes Christ's life and character during His ministry on earth an incomplete revelation of God. To put it another way, it makes God unlike Christ.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#94002
12/30/07 03:56 PM
12/30/07 03:56 PM
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OP
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The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands is exercised by evil angels when He permits. Jesus spoke of impending punishment and destruction.
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94017
12/30/07 05:43 PM
12/30/07 05:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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But what does this mean? You have the idea of man's justice, that God does something *to* them. But that's not the case. Satan is the destroyer. He is the one that destroys. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath.
You have the idea that sometimes God's wrath is manifest as described here, but this is just one of the ways God destroys. But this would makes Jesus' testimony untrue. Jesus never revealed this. The bottom line is that you believe that Jesus Christ, in His life and character during His mission on earth, did not fully reveal God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#94027
12/30/07 11:15 PM
12/30/07 11:15 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Tom, the context of your quote reveals only one of the ways God has punished and destroyed sinners. Withdrawing protection and giving evil angels permission to destroy is only one way. The following quotes describe other ways: God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}
God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}
Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}
The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}
Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore, causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. {3SG 79.1}
Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed--the ground trembles, heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder underground. The air is heated and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth. {3SG 80.1}
God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene-- pouring forth fire, and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear. They have been filled with awe as though they were beholding the infinite power of God. {3SG 80.2}
These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those, who like Pharaoh would proudly say, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence as when the melting fire burneth. The fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence. When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence. {3SG 81.1}
"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured our like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. {3SG 81.2}
"Bow thy heavens, O, Lord, and come down. Touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them. Shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them." {3SG 81.3}
Greater wonders than have yet been seen will be witnessed by those upon the earth a short period previous to the coming of Christ. "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath, blood and fire and vapour of smoke." "And there were voices and thunders and lightnings, and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, for the plague thereof was exceeding great." {3SG 82.1}
The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}
In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}
The following quotes make it clear we should not go around saying God does not directly punish or destroy sinners: It is the glory of God to be merciful, full of forbearance, kindness, goodness, and truth. But the justice shown in punishing the sinner is as verily the glory of the Lord as is the manifestation of His mercy.--RH March 10, 1904. {LDE 240.1}
God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 240, 240}
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94029
12/30/07 11:39 PM
12/30/07 11:39 PM
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OP
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The following EGW excerpts are taken from the quotes posted above.
---
EGW: Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
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EGW: The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands ....
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes holy angels stepping aside and allowing evil angels to destroy sinners?
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EGW: These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty.
MM: Tom, do you really believe passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
---
EGW: God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities.
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
---
EGW: These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those, who like Pharaoh would proudly say, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?"
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
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EGW: God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it.
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
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EGW: God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner
MM: Tom, do you really believe this passage describes Jesus giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#94036
12/31/07 02:34 AM
12/31/07 02:34 AM
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MM, my response to your last two posts would be what I wrote in post #93900.
Summarizing:
1)I don't think your piece-meal approach makes sense. It leads to the idea that we believe what Scripture says in regards to God's killing someone, unless Ellen White says something else. I don't think this hermeneutic makes sense.
2)Given that EGW wrote of Christ's ministry on earth: "all that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son," I don't see how your ideas regarding this subject can be true.
3)Basically, you think that God has multiple ways of destroying, but I see just one principle involved, the one laid out in GC 35-37. This makes for a hermeneutic that makes sense, and is in harmony with EGW's statement that all that we can know about God was revealed by Christ's incarnation.
4)Regarding not saying that God destroys or punishes sinners, I agree. However, how does God punish and destroy? By the means laid out in GC 35-37.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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