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Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #93997
12/30/07 04:22 PM
12/30/07 04:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, what is your take on the following (especially the underlined part).

 Quote:
I followed the people of God up to this time, and did not see that God was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel, "Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet." Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (Spiritual Gifts 4b page 3)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #94003
12/30/07 05:05 PM
12/30/07 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Quote:
MM: Tom, neither Jesus nor Sister White abrogated the civil laws Jesus established in the OT. When Jesus ordered Moses to kill the sabbath breaker He was acting in harmony with the character of God. Nothing can be clearer.

TE: It's a great pity you feel this way. This is no more an expression of God's character than the permission granted to divorce one's wife was a revelation of God's character. In Malachi, we read that God hates divorce (and anyone who knows God would know this). Why then did "Jesus order Moses" (to put things in your words) to allow divorce? Is this a revelation of God's character as one who divorces?

Tom, if ordering Moses to kill the sabbath breaker was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus command it? Because Moses was chomping at the bit to kill him, so Jesus gave in and commanded it?

If giving Jews permission to divorce was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus allow it? Because of the hardness of their hearts? Does that mean Jesus gave in and allowed it? What kind of God gives in to human pressure?

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94005
12/30/07 05:22 PM
12/30/07 05:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: MM, what is your take on the following (especially the underlined part): Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."

MM: It means God does not hold us accountable for the sins we commit in ignorance. The reason God is able to “wink at” sins of ignorance is due to the fact Jesus paid the sin debt of death for it. God cannot simply “wink at” sins of ignorance. Law and justice demand death for sin.

Leviticus
5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist [it] not, and it shall be forgiven him.
5:19 It [is] a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Matthew
26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans
3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94020
12/30/07 07:06 PM
12/30/07 07:06 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: MM, what is your take on the following (especially the underlined part): Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."

MM: It means God does not hold us accountable for the sins we commit in ignorance. The reason God is able to “wink at” sins of ignorance is due to the fact Jesus paid the sin debt of death for it. God cannot simply “wink at” sins of ignorance. Law and justice demand death for sin.


I'm not following you here. The angel said, "before the light comes, THERE IS NO SIN, for there is no light for them to reject." (emphasis mine).

If there is no sin, how could there be any debt that needs to be paid?

In regards to the OT texts, no one interpreted these texts as implying that these sacrifices were necessary in order for God to obtain a legal right to pardon. That is, no Hebrew understood this, this explanation is not given anywhere in the New Testament, and even today this interpretation is not given anywhere that I am aware, other than by you.

Here, for example, is something from a cite discussing Wesley's views of sins of ignorance:

 Quote:
With this brief reminder in our minds, we can (2) examine the regulations relating to sins of ignorance and related accidental sins more closely. As we do we will discover that the distinction between intentional sinning and unintentional transgression underlies them, and that, moreover, they remarkably preserve the claims of both legal guilt and moral innocence.

In this connection it should be noted first that the obligation to offer sacrifice for sins of ignorance arises only if and when the offense becomes known. In the cases of the general assembly, the leaders, and the common people the condition is the same: "When the sin which they have committed . . ." and "If his sin, which he has committed is made known to him then he shall...."

This simple ethical obligation is still with us, not to offer blood sacrifices (for we have Christ's atonement), but to acknowledge responsibility and make amends. Examples are everywhere, as, for instance, the amending of an income tax filing when an item is remembered or comes to light which was inadvertently omitted. It is thoroughly Wesleyan to acknowledge that when we discover errors and make no effort to correct them, we bear full guilt respecting them-not only legal but ethical. (emphasis mine)


http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/21-25/22-04.htm


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94033
12/31/07 01:16 AM
12/31/07 01:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Quote:
MM: Tom, neither Jesus nor Sister White abrogated the civil laws Jesus established in the OT. When Jesus ordered Moses to kill the sabbath breaker He was acting in harmony with the character of God. Nothing can be clearer.

TE: It's a great pity you feel this way. This is no more an expression of God's character than the permission granted to divorce one's wife was a revelation of God's character. In Malachi, we read that God hates divorce (and anyone who knows God would know this). Why then did "Jesus order Moses" (to put things in your words) to allow divorce? Is this a revelation of God's character as one who divorces?

Tom, if ordering Moses to kill the sabbath breaker was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus command it? Because Moses was chomping at the bit to kill him, so Jesus gave in and commanded it?

If giving Jews permission to divorce was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus allow it? Because of the hardness of their hearts? Does that mean Jesus gave in and allowed it? What kind of God gives in to human pressure?

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94034
12/31/07 01:27 AM
12/31/07 01:27 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: I'm not following you here. The angel said, "before the light comes, THERE IS NO SIN, for there is no light for them to reject." (emphasis mine).

MM: People who are unfamiliar with the truths regulating sabbath observance are indeed guilty of breaking the sabbath. "Though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity." God does not hold them accountable because Jesus paid their sin debt of death. Once people become aware of sabbath keeping they are required to repent of their former transgressions. The fact they are required to kill an animal is evidence they are guilty of sinning.

Leviticus
5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94039
12/31/07 04:06 AM
12/31/07 04:06 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, if ordering Moses to kill the sabbath breaker was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus command it? Because Moses was chomping at the bit to kill him, so Jesus gave in and commanded it?

If giving Jews permission to divorce was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus allow it? Because of the hardness of their hearts? Does that mean Jesus gave in and allowed it? What kind of God gives in to human pressure?


Here's what Jesus said about divorce.

 Quote:
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matt. 19:8)


What do you think this means?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Tom] #94056
12/31/07 06:23 PM
12/31/07 06:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: What do you think this means?

MM: It was Jesus, not Moses, who created the laws regulating divorce. Moses merely repeated what Jesus said. While here in the flesh, Jesus corrected Jewish perversions of the laws He Himself created, laws which take into account the fact sinners are hardhearted.

I agree with the following insights:

 Quote:
Among the Jews a man was permitted to put away his wife for the most trivial offenses, and the woman was then at liberty to marry again. This practice led to great wretchedness and sin. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus declared plainly that there could be no dissolution of the marriage tie except for unfaithfulness to the marriage vow. "Every one," He said, "that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery." {AH 340.3}

When the Pharisees afterward questioned Him concerning the lawfulness of divorce, Jesus pointed His hearers back to the marriage institution as ordained at creation. "Because of the hardness of your hearts," He said, Moses "suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." He referred them to the blessed days of Eden when God pronounced all things "very good." Then marriage and the Sabbath had their origin, twin institutions for the glory of God in the benefit of humanity. Then, as the Creator joined the hands of the holy pair in wedlock, saying, A man shall "leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one," He enunciated the law of marriage for all the children of Adam to the close of time. That which the eternal Father Himself had pronounced good was the law of highest blessing and development for man. {AH 340.4}

Jesus came to our world to rectify mistakes and to restore the moral image of God in man. Wrong sentiments in regard to marriage had found a place in the minds of the teachers of Israel. They were making of none effect the sacred institution of marriage. Man was becoming so hardhearted that he would for the most trivial excuse separate from his wife, or, if he chose, he would separate her from the children and send her away. This was considered a great disgrace and was often accompanied by the most acute suffering on the part of the discarded one. {AH 341.1}

Christ came to correct these evils, and His first miracle was wrought on the occasion of the marriage. Thus He announced to the world that marriage when kept pure and undefiled is a sacred institution.

The plan of salvation makes it possible for married people to live happily, to endure attacks against them, attacks calculated to cause separation and divorce.

Adultery is not an excuse to get divorced. Even in the case of adultery, the grace of God is sufficient to repair the damage and to restore marital bliss.

But in cases where adultery is irreconcilable, divorce may be the best way to resolve the dispute. In such cases, remarriage is in harmony with the laws of God.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94057
12/31/07 06:24 PM
12/31/07 06:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: I'm not following you here. The angel said, "before the light comes, THERE IS NO SIN, for there is no light for them to reject." (emphasis mine).

MM: People who are unfamiliar with the truths regulating sabbath observance are indeed guilty of breaking the sabbath. "Though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity." God does not hold them accountable because Jesus paid their sin debt of death. Once people become aware of sabbath keeping they are required to repent of their former transgressions. The fact they are required to kill an animal is evidence they are guilty of sinning.

Leviticus
5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Re: Are there any excuses for sinning? [Re: Mountain Man] #94058
12/31/07 06:25 PM
12/31/07 06:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, if ordering Moses to kill the sabbath breaker was not in harmony with God's character, why, then, did Jesus command it?

Was it because Moses was chomping at the bit to kill him, thus Jesus gave in and commanded it?

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