You could respond to the arguments I made in the post that I asked you to respond to several times. I think there were 4 points. Simply stating that the history arguments are irrelevant is too facile.

Also, I requested that you write out what you think the problem is, and how God solved the problem. I guess that's if you have more to say on this than simply Christ's dying earned God the legal right to pardon us.

Other than that, thanks for your participation.

I thought of one other item I'd appreciate your comment on:



In particular, you wrote:



Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Of course, genuine faith is testified to by works, but we are not saved by faith plus works. Similarly pardon is not obtained by faith plus works.

TE: Simply stating that the history arguments are irrelevant is too facile.

MM: That’s not what I posted. Here’s what I wrote: “The historical arguments you posted mean nothing to me if they are irrelevant. If penal substitution is based on inspired passages, the fact historians didn’t get it is, at best, unfortunate.”

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MM: Jews were required to kill an animal to obtain pardon. Yes, it symbolizes faith in Jesus’ atoning, substitutionary death; nevertheless, they were also required to kill an animal. Faith alone in Jesus’ death was not adequate to obtain pardon.

TE: Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Of course, genuine faith is testified to by works, but we are not saved by faith plus works. Similarly pardon is not obtained by faith plus works.

MM: In the case of the OT Jews, which is what I am talking about, both pardon and salvation depended on two things - 1) Faith in Jesus’ atoning, substitutionary death, and 2) Killing an animal. Faith alone in Jesus’ death was not adequate to obtain pardon or salvation. True, there was no merit in killing an animal. Nevertheless, pardon and salvation were conditional upon it.

DA 763
It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. {DA 762.5}

FW 94
Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. {FW 94.1}

SW 21
There are two distinct classes--those who are saved through faith in Christ and through obedience to His law, and those who refuse the truth as it is in Jesus. {SW 21.2}

FW 95
While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience…. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

PP 279
By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. God has given His Son to die as a propitiation for sin, He has manifested the light of truth, the way of life, He has given facilities, ordinances, and privileges; and now man must co-operate with these saving agencies; he must appreciate and use the helps that God has provided -- believe and obey all the divine requirements. {PP 279.1}

Equally facile and inadequate as a response.

The historical arguments are not irrelevant. People exist in a certain milieu. Just as in mathematics, it would have been impossible for someone in 50 A.D. to speak of complex numbers (since nobody knew about such things), it would have been impossible for Paul, or the other writers, to speak of penal substitution. Their milieu does not allow for it.

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There's no difference for how salvation is obtained for OT Jews or NT Jews or Gentiles or whoever. For all, salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Salvation, or pardon, is not a "faith plus works" thing, regardless of the time a person lives.



These quotes all say what I'm saying. Faith is testified by works. None contradict her statement that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. It's not "faith plus works" but "faith which works."