I'd like to see that. It might clarify some things for me.


Makes sense. Then the task becomes determining which belief is fundamental and which is derived.

I think if you take the position that death is not an externally-imposed penalty, you will come to the same conclusions I have in regards to penal substitution and the final judgment. I think these are logically equivalent. I haven't tried to prove that, however. I think I'll think about it and maybe give it a try.

I'd like to see that. It might clarify some things for me.

Ok. I've thought a little about it, but not much yet. It seems to me that the final judgment part comes immediately. If death is not an externally-imposed penalty, then there is no eternally imposed penalty at the judgment, as the penalty is death, and it's already been agree that this is not externally imposed.

The penal substitution part will require more thought.

Regarding your question as to why I hold to the idea that penal substitution is not correct, I thought of a simpler answer, which is simply that if it were true, it would say certain things about God which I believe are false.

Makes sense. Then the task becomes determining which belief is fundamental and which is derived.


It seems they are rather inextricably interconnected, but certainly one's views regarding God must be the most important consideration, it seems to me. For example, suppose we think that Scripture teaches that God will torment the wicked for all eternity in hell. What does that say about God? Not good things. So we may decide to reject the doctrine, in spite of the apparent Scriptural support, simply because we cannot accept that it is true, given what the results would be in regards to what it would imply regarding God's character.

Another approach would be to say, I don't care what it says about God's character, if it's in Scripture, in must be true, so I'll go with that no matter what (which, of course, disregards the possibility that Scripture may be being misapplied).

It seems to me that if we go about trying to construct a theology that makes God as good as possible, so to speak, that we can't go wrong, provided (and this is a huge condition) that we aren't simply fashioning a "God" from our own imaginings, but are truly allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us in our search for truth.

As Jesus said (paraphrased) if we are willing to do His will, we will know the truth.

But we should understand that what "makes God as good as possible" differs from one person to the next. Some believe that everyone will be saved because God is so good. So that, obviously, is not a foolproof hermeneutic.

Well, to some extent it will be true that what makes God good will vary from person to person, as we perceive and value different things (such as attributes of character) differently.

Regarding the second sentence, that's why I added the caveat, pointing out its importance, that we listen to God revealing Himself to us, as opposed to fashioning an idol of our own devisings, which brings the following quote to mind:



Boy, that hits the mark perfectly, doesn't it?

Bullseye!

This is from wiki, on "penal substitution"



The "these ideas" in the first sentence is referring to Anselm's ideas on the satisfaction theory.

I thought about this a bit more, Arthur, and I couldn't think of any way to make this work (i.e. penal substitution) without an arbitrarily, or externally, imposed penalty.

It also seems to me that penal substitution implies the final judgment must also be an imposed penalty as well.

TE: It also seems to me that penal substitution implies the final judgment must also be an imposed penalty as well.

MM: Sister White makes a connection between the cross and the final judgment. She refers to it as God's "punishment" and "just retribution". These are externally imposed by God. She also warns us against thinking God is too kind and merciful to execute punishment and retribution.

PP 408
There are those who will question God's love and His justice in visiting so severe punishment for words spoken in the heat of passion. But both love and justice require it to be shown that utterances prompted by malice against God are a great sin. The retribution visited upon the first offender would be a warning to others, that God's name is to be held in reverence. But had this man's sin been permitted to pass unpunished, others would have been demoralized; and as the result many lives must eventually have been sacrificed. {PP 408.2}

3BC 1166
Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. But the cases of Miriam, Aaron, David, and many others show that it is not a safe thing to sin against God in deed, in word, or even in thought. God is a being of infinite love and compassion, but He also declares Himself to be a "consuming fire, even a jealous God" (RH Aug. 14, 1900). {3BC 1166.2}

GC 539
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

3BC 1166
The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the Garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, and abuse heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. Every offense against God's law, however minute, is set down in the reckoning, and when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work for impenitent transgressors that was done to the divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming (MS 58, 1897). {3BC 1166.3}

GC 627
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

PM 178
When calamity comes, unless the Lord indicates plainly that this calamity is sent as a punishment of those who are departing from the word of His counsel; unless He reveals that it has come as a retribution for the sins of the workers, let every man refrain from criticism. Let us be careful not to reproach anyone.--RH, Aug. 16, 1906. {PM 178.2}

From DA 764 we read:



There are other quotes like this which explain their being an organic connection between sin and death, as opposed to death being something imposed by God as a punishment.

One can make the "imposing" language fit with an organic framework, but it's difficult for me to see how this can work the other way.

If the penalty for sin is something imposed, then our motivation to be reconciled to God is so that He won't kill us, which seems problematic. OTOH, if it is sin which results in death, then we see God acting in a saving role, by healing/saving us from that which would kill us.

TE: OTOH, if it is sin which results in death, then we see God acting in a saving role, by healing/saving us from that which would kill us.

MM: Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. It isn't sin that kills sinners; they die because they cannot eat of the tree of the life.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

Tom, if God simply allows sin to run its course, how do you explain the following insights?

1. "There are those who will question God's love and His justice in visiting so severe punishment for words spoken in the heat of passion." (quoted above) There is nothing passive about this incident.

2. "Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender." (quoted above) There's nothing passive about these incidents.

3. "God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary." (quoted) There is nothing passive about Jesus' death on the cross.

4. "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." (quoted above) There is nothing passive about this quote either.