It is how these dear saints manage keeping on disagreeing while agreeing on keeping up the discussion. This must be a patience of the saints in a nutshell.

You are saying if God is experiencing our future now it means free will is nonexistent because we cannot do anything different when that time arrives than what God sees us doing now.

What I'm saying is this:

a)If God knows with certainty that the future will be in a certain way, one certain way, then the future will be that certain way.
b)If the future is in one certain way, then the future cannot be in some other certain way.
c)Since free will necessitates the possibility of the future being in more than one certain way, free will cannot exist if the future is in one certain way.

Point c) depends on point b). Point b) here is implied by point a), but could be implied by other things; it need not be point a). For example, it's conceivable that some scientific discovery, in the field of physics, for example, could lead to the idea that the future is one certain way. In this case, the logic would look like this:

a)If science determines that the future will be in a certain way, one certain way, then the future will be that certain way.
b)If the future is in one certain way, then the future cannot be in some other certain way.
c)Since free will necessitates the possibility of the future being in more than one certain way, free will cannot exist if the future is in one certain way.

The crucial link is from b) to c). What causes b) to be true is irrelevant (this is why I say God's knowledge of the future is not the salient factor).

Writing something like, "God's knowing what we will do does not cause us to do that thing" is missing the point of the argument. You'd have to write something like "God's knowing what we will do does not mean we will do that thing." This statement would be challenging the validity of going from step a) to step b).

To disprove the argument you have three choices:

1)Disagree with the starting point (point a).
2)Disagree with the reasoning in point b.
3)Disagree with the reasoning in point c.

The proof is in the pudding. I feel totally free to choose as I please even though I know God already knows what I'm going to do. There is nothing about God's knowledge of my future choices that makes me feel like I do not truly have the freedom to choose as I please. This is true whether I look at it from your perspective or from mine, whether God knows it one minute in advance or an eternity in advance.

That is also true from the most strict calvinist point of view. In that theory, there is nothing about God's predestinating your future choises that makes you feel like you do not truly have freedom to choose as you please. You will still feel totally free to choose as you please even though God has already decided what you are going to do.

MM, the key question is whether you simply "feel" that you can do what you want to do, or whether you really are free to choose between different choices.

To say "the proof is in the pudding" and then write out what you feel is not in the least any sort of logical proof.

Please address points a, b, or c.

I feel free because I am free; otherwise, I would feel imprisoned. Just because God knows my choices it doesn't mean He forces me to choose accordingly.

I totally disagree with your ABC formula. It doesn't apply to God. It assumes things about the future and God that cannot be true for the simple reason it doesn't work.

The truth is - God knows our future choices, which in no way robs us our ability and freedom to choose as we please. Whatever we believe about the future it must harmonize with these undeniable facts.

You can argue against these facts until you are blue in the face, but it will not change them one iota. You can earnestly plead, "But law and logic disallow it", and it wouldn't change the truth.

This is just admitting you have no answer to the argument. OK.

Mike;

Have you ever tried to tell a reformed pastor that he understands predestination wrongly because if how he understood it to be was the truth, you would not feel free?

That God would know all of our future choises is not an undeniable fact for the simple reason that it has been denied and backed with evidence that have not been refuted.

I have attempted to support my view with Bible and SOP. For over 20 pages it has been rejected. What more can I say? God's knowledge of our future choices in no way means free will is nonexistent. Law and logic also agree.