1. is dealing with a different subject.

2. sounds like it also is dealing with a different subject, but to address the words actually quoted:



just this in itself is explained, in principle, here:



You seem to have the idea that unless God Himself does something violent, He is being soft on sin. Yet the GC quote points out that God was never more decisive in regards to giving punishment than in the events that transpired in the destruction of Jerusalem.

3.Regarding Calvary, you are correct that Christ's death was not passive, in terms of what evil men and angels did to Him, but God certainly did nothing violent to Christ.

Actually this quote would probably be about the strongest quote in favor of my position that I can think of. What was God's role in the crucification of Christ? As Peter and Paul point out, Christ was "delivered" by God, which is to say, God allowed that which evil men and angels did to Him to take place.

4.I think the characterization of active/passive may not be the best way of conceptualizing things here. The question really is whether there is an organic relationship between sin and death, or only an artificial or arbitrary or external or imposed (choose a word) relationship.

In other words, does the glory of Him who is love destroys them indicate something organic, or something God does? Here's a parallel quote:



Since the same thing that slays the wicked gives life to the righteous, it's quite clearly not something God arbitrarily does to them (agreeing with DA 764), but a result of their own choice (a point also brought out by DA 764).

TE: OTOH, if it is sin which results in death, then we see God acting in a saving role, by healing/saving us from that which would kill us.

MM: "Sin which results in death." How can sin die? Do you mean, Sin causes sinners to die the instant God stops protecting them? If so, then I beg to differ. It isn't sin that kills sinners; they die because they cannot eat of the tree of the life.

Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

TE: In other words, does the glory of Him who is love destroys them indicate something organic, or something God does?

MM: I'm having a hard time understanding what you believe. Who or what punishes sinners in proportion to their sinfulness and then eventually kills them? Is it sin? Or, is it the glory of God?

Also, is it true that God is too kind and merciful to punish and destroy sinners? "Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender."

According to your view, God punishes and destroys sinners by withdrawing His protection and giving evil angles permission to hurt and kill them. Therefore, you believe God is not too kind and merciful to punish and destroy sinners, right?

Let me try quoting DA 764:



I would be hard pressed to put what I believe any more clearly that this. In fact, these paragraphs are the chief reason I believe what I believe.

We see here that she points out that the wicked did, not because because of an arbitrary use of power on God's part, but because of their own choice. They reap that which they have sown, which is death. ""All they that hate Me love (choose) death."

As she puts it:






You need to be clearer about what you're talking about. Are you talking about the final judgment? Or acts such as the destruction of Jerusalem? Or both?

The principles are similar in different situations, but the actual working out of things is different. I would say in all situations there is an element of God's withdrawal, in some shape or form. Also, this withdrawal of God is voiced in Scripture as His "wrath." There are many examples of this, the clearest one perhaps being Romans 1 where God's wrath against unrighteousness is defined by His giving over those who have rebelled against Him to their desires (stated no less then three different times in the span of but a few verses).

In the first chapter of The Great Controversy we see this theme clearly spelled out. Also there is the warning (unfortunately, often not heeded by many) that the great deceiver hides his work by making it appear that God is responsible for his deeds.

Now you have the idea of a wrathful God who kills in many different ways, not understanding "wrath" as His giving up the sinner to His choice, but as something else. One of the ways, as you see it, is as described in the destruction of Jerusalem chapter in the Great Controversy. But limiting this description to this one event misses the point that EGW is enunciating a principle. The things that she wrote were not for that one event only, but were principles to be applied to other situations.

Indeed, this is how the works of inspiration should be read. We should look for the principles involved, so that we can apply them to other situations.

If we look at the life of Christ, we see that it is exactly in harmony with the principles laid out in "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White, with no exceptions. Perhaps the best example of this was when he was urged to kill by his disciples by having fire be sent from heaven. Christ reacted by pointing out that they did not know what spirit they were of, which is to say they were seconding the ideas of the evil one. Then, significantly, it says that He departed and went to another village.

*That's* the way that Christ dispenses vengeance and judgment. This is the working of God's wrath! It *is* something covered in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, just as Ellen White said.

Tom, I am unable to address your last post until you address this one. Thank you.

On second thought, I would like to comment on the following:

TE: I would say in all situations there is an element of God's withdrawal, in some shape or form. Also, this withdrawal of God is voiced in Scripture as His "wrath."

MM: On the one hand, God's presence causes sinners to die. And on the other hand, His absence causes sinners to die. In either case, the thing that causes sinners to die is God. Of course, it is God who cause saints to live. It is better to be a saint, than a sinner, in the presence or absence of God.

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)

Sin can't die. It's not alive. That doesn't make sense. Sin causes those who choose it as their "raison d'etre" to perish.

As EGW puts it:

The underlined is an untruth, and a very dangerous one at that.



It is Satan, not God, who is the author of sin and all its results, including death.

TE: Sin causes those who choose it as their "raison d'etre" to perish.

MM: Sin does not cause sinners to die. This theory is in direct contradiction to the principles outlined in the following passages:

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

"Therefore [for the reason stated above] there is not an immortal sinner." What is the reason? Why do sinners die? Because they do not have free access to the life-giving fruit; not for the reason you have been advocating.

EGW: Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin.

MM: Satan wants us to believe disease and death are "arbitrarily" inflicted by God. The truth is - it is never arbitrary. God doesn't do anything without good reason and just cause. When He visits punishment upon sinners it is in harmony with law and justice. There are times, however, when things happen that are nothing more than God allowing sinners to reap what they have sown.

---

TE: It is Satan, not God, who is the author of sin and all its results, including death.

MM: On the one hand, you say sin causes sinners to die. On the other hand, you say Satan causes sinners to die. But Inspiration says, It is God's glory, His presence that causes sinners to die. Who do we believe?

DA 764
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

DA 764
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)