Certainly the answer to this question must be "yes." Crucifixion was a means of torture.



Two points. One is that metaphorically one could say they suffer torture, but not according to the definition they don't. Secondly, God hates sin because of what it does to His creatures. It is not God's hatred of sin which is the problem. It is sin which is the problem. Sin is responsible for the "torture".



Obviously we don't believe in the evangelical idea of what is labeled here as "unceasing torture." However, is the only difference between the truth and what they believe one of duration? That is, do we believe in "ceasing torture"? Or is there some difference in what is actually happening (not just the duration, but the event itself) from what is described here and what truly comes to pass?



It can be denied, and is denied, that this is an imposed penalty. For example:



I inserted the parenthetical comment "imposed" because, from the context, it's clear this is the point she is making. She is not arguing that the wicked's destruction occurs as a non-capricious act of power on the part of God, but as a non-imposed act of power on the part of God. If she were arguing that it was non-capricious, but still and act of God, she would not have continued the argument as she did, pointing out again and again that the cause is due to their own action. Rather she would point out that God's actions were righteous and just, and that He good reason to do what He was doing.

Also although God raises the wicked up to suffer punishment, this is not the only reason they are rasied up, and not even the primary one. The primary reason has to do with the truth being made known to the whole universe, which is the only way the Great Controversy can be ended. Every person must freely acknowledge that God has been right and true in all His dealings. The whole Great Controversy has been over the questions regarding God's character which have been raised. Is God fair? Is He selfish? Does He consider the interests of His own creatures, or only His own? The judgment will bring out the truth for all to see. It is indeed unfortunate that many will suffer as a result, but there's no way to avoid that, and still provided everyone an opportunity to understand and acknowledge the truth.



This is not the case, as explained just above.



Yes, I think so. I think you're misevaluating the primary purpose of the judgment. The primary purpose has to do with every knee bowing at the knee of Christ, and His being acknowledged as rightful King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

To the extent that this is a "cruel death," that cruelty is 100% due to the nature of sin, which is cruel to its followers. God is in no sense cruel.

The definition of torture, to me, is "any severe physical or mental pain; agony; anguish" (Webster's, 3d acceptation). It may or may not be inflicted by someone. I don't think God inflicts a torture for the pleasure of doing it. But I do believe that sin must be judged, and that God won't abstain from doing that just to spare sinners from the suffering this entails. Therefore, He will raise them specifically for that purpose.

Tom, I hear you saying sin is what causes sinners to suffer and die in the lake of fire, that God does nothing that adds to their suffering and death. But I also hear you saying, to sin, wherever found, our God is a consuming fire, that the glory of God causes sinners to burn up and die with their sins. How do I reconcile these points?

I also agree there is no way to reconcile that, MM. Sin, in itself, can only result in the first death. The second death requires two ingredients: sin + the glory of God.

That's not how I'm using the word. I'm using it as defined by international law:



That the pain is intentionally inflicted by someone is important to the point that I'm making.



The definition of torture, as defined by international law, does not require that pleasure be obtained in the act of inflicting pain. My point is that this theory would have God acting in a way which is so inhumane that it prohibited by international law. Can this be right? Is God one who tortures?

To say that sin must be judged is to ask the question, "Why?" To say that justice demands it doesn't say anything meaningful. It is God who decides what He will and won't do. So why does God raise the wicked?

It seems clear to me that the reason involves recognizing that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, which is another way of saying that God's character will be vindicated, and He will be recognized as having been a God of love, an unselfish God, One who has always valued the best interests of His creatures above His own. Thus it must be the case that the judgment is in the own best interests for the wicked themselves. And in reading GC 541-543, this indeed seems to be a point being raised. For example:



If it were simply a matter of a slight to Himself, of God's turning the other cheek instead of insisting upon vengeance, then the wicked would not be rested. That God would act this way is clearly seen in the life of Christ. However, there is more involved in the judgment than simply God's own well being or God's desire to have vengeance or justice.

Satan is the author of sin and all its results. God mercifully brings the suffering of the wicked to an end. They suffer because they cannot stand being around God or heaven.





God's glory is simply His character. The passage which says that God's glory slays the wicked actually says, "The glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked." Now if God were imposing something against the wicked, this sentence wouldn't make sense.

God is simply being Himself, which, because of what the wicked have done to themselves, in comiting themselves to sin, has unfitted them to be in His presence. But since God's presence is everywhere, God mercifully allows them to die.



What I wrote above covers this point.

Any sin affects the whole universe, therefore it must be judged before the universe.
The quote you provided says:

"God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited."(GC 541, 542)

By "executing justice" Ellen White does not refer to the judgment itself, but to the execution of the sentence, that is, God's act of removing the sinner´s life. He does this for the good of the universe and, of course, for the good of the sinner himself, since "the Lord could not do a more cruel thing than to save man in his rebellion" {ST, November 15, 1899 par. 8}.

However, in practical terms, since the wicked were already dead there would be no need to remove their lives. In fact, some will be spared this (the slaves mentioned by Ellen White, etc.), which means that all could be spared this, were it not for the fact that willful transgression of the law requires judgment.

God's physical presence doesn't need to be everywhere. God is not physically present on this earth, and Satan would live comfortably here for ever. In fact, this was exactly his plan.

God does something artificial, one could say, to allow Satan to continue to live. If God had left Satan to reap the full consequences of his sin, he would have died long ago.

The glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. God's glory will be everywhere. As soon as God stops the intervention which allows Satan to continue living, he will die.

Back to the question of human beings being burned alive by fire as punishment for their sins, how do you see this working? It seems to me, given the description of the earth as a lake of fire, and the knowledge that beneath the earth's crust, which is much thinner than an egg shell comparatively (as the flood waters were underneath the earth's crust before the flood), that the fire being spoken of is molten lava. Molten lava, being composed of different material than water, is around 1200 degrees centigrade (as opposed to water, which is, of course, 100 degrees) or over 2100 degrees fahrenheit. The wicked are resurrected with the same bodies they had when they went to the grave, bodies which might exist for about 5 seconds or so in such temperatures.

So how do the wicked survive for 5 days? How does one here understand God's actions to be more like the actions of Jesus Christ then medieval torturers? If the wicked need to be punished to pay off some debt, then why not allow them to do so in a humane way? Like how Satan is tied to the earth for 1,000 years, with an opportunity to consider what he has done. That's humane. Why burn them alive for days upon end? How is this "justice"?

How do we know that Satan is still alive? Where is the evidence? There is so much unwarranted speculation?

Darius