No, that's not her point. Your conclusion does not follow her argument. She says that *Satan* is the author of sin and all its results. That God does not arbitrarily inflict us with sin means that He does does nothing external or imposed to cause it to happen. This is very clear from the context.

If her meaning were what you were suggesting, she would have said something along the lines of what you said; that God did it, but He had good reasons to do so. But that's not what she said.

By the way, you're misunderstanding the word "arbitrary," which is very common. It's primary meaning means by way of individual discretion. Ellen White is using the word according to its proper definition, to mean God is not inflicting others with disease by means of an act of individual discretion.



Well, Ellen White says that Satan is the author of sin and all its results, so why not go with that?

Wasn't this the devil's lie?



This is pretty clear, isn't it? Death is "the inevitable result of sin," which is the same thing as saying that "sin results in death," isn't it?



Not unless the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself.

You have a way of thinking which makes these things seem contradictory to yourself, so you wind up rejecting one of the statements in favor of the other. But the statements are not contradictory.

There is absolutely no reason to think that death is no the inevitable result of sin simply because God did not permit Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life.



It's not I. I have been quoting from The Desire of Ages. These are direct quotes:





Here are some more:

Yes, of course, there are times when there is a cause and consequence relationship between sinning and suffering and dying BEFORE sinners punish and perish in the lake of fire. I have stated this point numerous times.

The reason we suffer and die long lingering deaths, instead of God killing us immediately as law and justice require of Him, is due the fact Jesus bought us probation with His blood. Had Jesus not paid our sin debt of death, the human race would have ended with the instant execution of Adam and Eve.

The loyal beings, however, would have misunderstood it and would have, for a time, served God out of fear until full scale rebellion broke out. God would have been forced to eliminate all FMAs throughout His vast universe. To prevent this from happening is just one of the many reasons God choose to grant us probation.

In the end, none of the loyal or redeemed saints will question God's "strange act", when He resurrects and punishes and destroys sinners in the lake of fire. The glory of God's presence and fire rained down from heaven will cause sinners to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness and to eventually die the eternal death.

There is nothing arbitrary about it. God is justified in destroying sin and sinners. Holy angels and redeemed saints will unite in praising God for His justice and mercy, for putting an end to sin. In one sense it is mercy killing; putting the hopeless out of their misery. In another sense it appeases the wrath of an offended God, it satisfies the just and loving demands of law and justice.

GC 543
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. (GC 543)

GC 544
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

GC 672-674
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

The quotes above are not limited to discussing what happens before sinners punish and perish in the lake of fire. For example, the quotes from DA 471, DA 764, 6SDABC 1085, and RH Aug 4/1910 all deal with the second death; some are dealing *exclusively* with the second death.



Justice is not greater than God!!! It makes no sense to say that justice is demanding something of God, in a literal sense. THIS IS A METAPHOR.

It is God alone who determines what He will do. He is Sovereign.

The law does not demand that God kill us immediately. This is a terrible way of looking at things. Just awful. It makes God responsible for our death instead of sin.



This is mixing things up. You're obviously thinking of DA 764 here. The issue you're referring to had to do with why Satan was not left to reap the full consequences of his sin. She does not say that the angels would have had doubts about Satan's death because God killed Him, but that had God *left* Satan to reap the full consequences of his sin, they would not have understood.

"Left" she said. "Left" is the past tense of "leave," which means "to cause or allow to be or remain in a specified condition." God took actions so as not to leave Satan in the condition that sin put him in. Satan should have died immediately, in consequence of his sin. He didn't die because God took actions to prevent this from happening. He was not LEFT to reap the full consequences of his sin.

This was an issue which was decided *before* our creation, and hence, before our probation.



Could you explain the fire part for me please? The wicked will be raised in bodies such as we have, which is to say non-resurrection bodies. Our bodies cannot stand to be burned by fire. We die when this happens. So how is it that some wicked suffer for many days?



Did you have something like this in mind?



Again, assuming you have DA 764 in mind, you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word "arbitrary." It means, in that context, "imposed" or "external" or "not a natural consequence." It doesn't mean "capricious" or "without cause."

The judgment involves much more than what you're discussing. You have brought up the most important points, without which we cannot hope to understand what's going on.

Came across something that touches on the "dichotomy" between the OT and NT.

The problem is reinterpreting the New to fit the Old, rather than interpreting the Old in the light of Christ. As Jesus said:



According to Ellen White:



This is, of course, echoed in the New Testament (or rather, EGW echoes the New Testament).

I'm still stumped by the idea that God commands us to do things that He would not do Himself. When that guy was caught picking up sticks, God commanded that he be stoned.

In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus taught a parable which had the people continuing to live after death (i.e., wrong idea of an immortal soul). Jesus taught them this parable, using their erroneous idea of an immortal soul, to teach them truth regarding another subject.

We note:

a)Jesus, of course, knew the truth about the state of dead.
b)Jesus knew His hearers did not know this truth.
c)Jesus taught a parable which had error in it, in regards to the state of the dead.



This is an example of God's taking account of our particular circumstances and counseling us accordingly.

Another example of this principle would be the Israelite's having a king. God never intended that they should have a king. Picking a king for them is not something God would ordinarily have done Himself. However, because of their stubbornness, God acceded to their desires.

Another example is the paper of divorce God allowed to be given. God's true view of divorce was laid out by Jesus Christ (as well as Malachi: "I hate divorce"). Because of the hardness of their hearts, God made an accommodation for them.

Another example is the military battles the Israelites fought. God never intended that they should fight their own battles, any more than that they should have a king. His first choice was to be their king, and fight their battles for them. But if His people will not keep step with Him, then He must humble Himself and keep step with them, which is what He did in so many cases.

There are many examples of this principle.

God's dealings with the Israelites were not an ideal. God had to make many accommodations because of their ignorance and stubbornness. The ideal is seen in Christ.

By studying Christ's life and teachings, we can see what God is really like, what His principles are, what His desires are. Because so many accommodations had to be made in the case of the Israelites, many had false ideas about what God was really like. Satan was being remarkably successful in his efforts to misrepresent God's character. Even angels (as the DA chapter "It Is Finished" points out) were confused to a degree by Satan's sophistries, and weren't clear on things until Jesus Christ's incarnation.

It is one thing to say, "I wish you guys would be like Me, but since you're so messed up, I'll let you do that." But quite another to say, "I wish you guys would be like Me, but if you want to obey Me, you will have to do that which you and I abhor."

I see what you're saying for Lazarus, but I don't see how that relates to capital punishment in the OT.

In the parable, Jesus allowed a misconception to continue so that He could teach a more important lesson.

In your view, capital punishment in the OT was not God's will. But not only did He allow it to continue, He instituted it! That's a different thing altogether. That would be like Jesus first teaching the people about eternal torment, THEN allowing the misconception to continue.

I can handle allowing the misconception to continue. I'm having difficulty with creating the misconception in the first place. And that's what we're looking at in the OT death sentence.

If the sinner's death was needed to teach a lesson, God could have done it Himself. He could open the ground and crush the sinners. He could turn them into salt. He could have them eaten by worms. He could send an angel to smite them. He could cause them to burst into flames. He can do any or all of these things. Instead, He made His people pick up stones and violently execute the sinner themselves.

What "bigger" lesson would God have been teaching, big enough that He would command His people to do something He is not willing to do Himself?

And this concept, that God would expect His creatures to do something against His own nature, something that He is not willing to do Himself, goes against the record of Christ's life in the NT. Since "all that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son," I don't see how this can be true, since Christ revealed no such attribute.