Bob wrote - "It would appear that Mrs. White has somehow confused these two groups."

I see your point. There are other places where she applies Rev 7:14-17 to the Great Multitude.

9T 267, 268
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:12-17. {9T 267.2}

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. . . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:9-17. {9T 267.3}

In these scriptures two parties are brought to view. One party permitted themselves to be deceived and took sides with those with whom the Lord has a controversy. They misinterpreted the messages sent them and clothed themselves in robes of self-righteousness. Sin was not sinful in their eyes. They taught falsehood as truth, and by them many souls were led astray. {9T 268.1}

The reason why I believe Rev 7:14-17 can be applied to both the 144,000 and Great Multitude is because everybody who makes it to heaven have suffered persecution and tribulation in one form or another and will wear white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb.

But there is one detail in verse 15 that can apply only to the 144,000 according to Sister White - "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

EW 19
And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {EW 18.2}

This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The wonderful things I there saw I cannot describe. Oh, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the better world. I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold. {EW 19.1}

The following passages seem to suggest that Jesus is the firstfruits in heaven right now and not the 144,000.

1 Corinthians
15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Revelation
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Sister White wrote that the saints resurrected with Jesus were presented to God as tokens of His triumph, as the wave sheaf, and symbolic of the great multitude that will make up the first resurrection when Jesus returns.

DA 834.2
[After spending 40 days with His disciples Jesus returns to heaven] He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming.

Since the wave sheaf (firstfruits) was presented as a thank offering to the Lord it could be argued from Sister White's statement above that the saints resurrected with Jesus [it should be noted that the Bible does not refer to this group as the firstfruits] and the 144,000 are the firstfruits. However, as the next quote shows she clearly taught that Jesus is the antitypical wave sheaf (firstfruits) and not the resurrected saints or the 144,000. Thus it is safe to conclude that when either Sister White or the Revelation applies the term firstfruits to any group other than Jesus it is with the understanding that Jesus is true firstfruits and such application is by their association with Jesus only.

DA 785, 786
Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord. For more than a thousand years this symbolic ceremony had been performed. From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him." 1 Thess. 4:14. {DA 785.4}

As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. {DA 786.1}

Whitlie, I can see you are convinced from your study of the Bible and Sister White that the Great Multitude are translated alive when Jesus returns.

Mike,

do you have something to offer in contrast from the Scriptures and the PEN, to offset this position. Unity of mind is brought in by God's people sharing one with another.

No one must be caught in this position.

No one should claim that he has all the light there is for God's people. The Lord will not tolerate this. He has said,"I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." Even if all our leading men should refuse light and truth, that door will still remain open. The Lord will raise up men who will give the people the message for this time. {TM 107.1}

All the Israelites that crossed the Jordan river were of one mind, The Wilderness experience had taught them that. So today the Children of God that have the Spirit of Inspiration too, will be of one mind. However this is not possible if they do not share the light that God has given.

Whitlee

Whitlie, I respect your opinion but I don't agree with you. Which is okay in matters that do not involve salvation. The following passage tells me Sister White believed the great multitude will be resurrected when Jesus returns.

DA 834.2
[After spending 40 days with His disciples Jesus returns to heaven] He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming.

Mike, let's look at this statement.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22, 23. {CC 23.1}
Amid the reeling of the earth, the flash of lightning, and the roar of thunder, the voice of the Son of God calls forth the sleeping saints. . . . The dead shall hear that voice, and they that hear shall live. And the whole earth shall ring with the tread of the exceeding great army of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. . . . {CC 23.2}
All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. . . . {CC 23.3}
All blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will "grow up" to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. . . . {CC 23.4}

In this state, Paul has pointed out and Mrs White agrees that Christ and those that rose with Him, Matt, 27:52, constitute the first fruits of the dead. Then she points out the second resurrection. A first fruit of the DEAD, and a second harvest, or second fruits of the DEAD. She is pointing out the logic, even if the term second fruit is not use.

The same principle applies to Rev. 14:1-5. The Scriptures teach that before the fourwinds are released a people the 144,000 are sealed. The Scriptures teach after the four winds are released, a second group is sealed.Both are sealed for translation. Further GC.634 states no martyrs during the time of trouble, pointing to translation with out seeing death, is both groups.

How as a Bible Student do you reconcile these statements and positions.

with blessings
whitlee

As I see it, the scene (Rev 7:9-12) portraying the Great Multitude takes place "before the throne" in heaven after the second coming. The immediate context of these verses do not, therefore, reveal whether they were resurrected or translated alive. It simply shows them in heaven rejoicing with the rest of the redeemed and the heavenly host.

The Great Multitude symbolizes the redeemed of all ages except the 144,000 (they are symbolized separately). There are only two ways to enter heaven 1) by resurrection and 2) by translation. Thus, in order to account for everyone depicted in Rev 7:9-12, it is obvious to me (since the 144,000 are translated alive) that the Great Multitude are resurrected.

I suppose some one could argue that Rev 7:9-12 does not depict everyone in heaven just the Great Multitude. But that doesn't make sense in light of the fact this passage describes Jesus crowning the faithful. Why wouldn't the 144,000 and the rest of the redeemed be present too?

GC 650.1
The heirs of God have come from garrets, from hovels, from dungeons, from scaffolds, from mountains, from deserts, from the caves of the earth, from the caverns of the sea.... They stand before the throne clad in richer robes than the most honored of the earth have ever worn. They are crowned with diadems more glorious than were ever placed upon the brow of earthly monarchs. The days of pain and weeping are forever ended. The King of glory has wiped the tears from all faces; every cause of grief has been removed. Amid the waving of palm branches they pour forth a song of praise, clear, sweet, and harmonious; every voice takes up the strain, until the anthem swells through the vaults of heaven: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And all the inhabitants of heaven respond in the ascription: "Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever." Revelation 7:10, 12.

I quote from E.G. White "The Youth's Instructor, August 11, 1898, paragraph 1:

"When Christ cried out while upon the cross, "It is finished," there was a mighty earthquake, that rent open the graves of many who had been faithful and loyal, bearing their testimony against every evil work, and magnifying the Lord of hosts. As the Life-giver came forth from the sepulcher, proclaiming. "I am the resurrection, and the life," he summoned these saints from the grave. When alive, they had borne their testimony unflinchingly for the truth; now, they were to be witnesses to him who had raised them from the dead. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan. I have redeemed them ; I have brought them from the grave as the first-fruits of my power, to be with me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow."

Now compare this to Revelation 14:3,4

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty thousand, which were redeemed from the earth .

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men , being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I think that it is fairly clear as to the true identity of the 144,000.

Mike we need to look closer. AS you have pointed out previously, my position hangs on what I have read from Ellen G. White. Since Scripture is not of privat interpretation, then only Messengers sent from God are allowed speak for Him. Such is the Spirit of Truth.

"As I see it, the scene (Rev 7:9-12) portraying the Great Multitude takes place "before the throne" in heaven after the second coming. The immediate context of these verses do not, therefore, reveal whether they were resurrected or translated alive. It simply shows them in heaven rejoicing with the rest of the redeemed and the heavenly host." M. L.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The Scriptures say, Rev. &:1-8, that the sealing of the 144,000 are sealed in a time of relitive peace, that is before the fourwinds are release. Early Writings 38.

After a great multitude is seen, wearing white robes with a palmbranch in their hands. (see Enoch Early Writings 46)

John was asked "who are these, said he did not know, but replied, thous knowest." John was then told who they were.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes,

The question is what tribulation period is the Messenger referring too? Being Specific he was told...Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

What period of Bible history fulfills this discription. The only one is found in Rev. 16.

When did they hunger, during the Seven last Plagues.

When did they thirst. Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every
living soul died in the sea.
Revelation 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Revelation 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

And when was there great heat, Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


These verses indentify the time frame. As pointed in previous post. Enoch by discription represents this group that Ellen G. White saw that did not taste death. This line of reasoning is consistent with SAnctuary teaachings as the whole Book of the Revelation is an indetpth study of the Sanctuary doctrines.

Will consider the next part of your post later.

With Sabbath Blessings.
Shalom Shabbat.
Whitlee.