Whew! That was a long post. But very informative. Thanx. Whitlie and I were discussing an order of last day events having to with the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. What are your thoughts? Are the 144,000 translated alive before, after or at the same time as the Great Multitude? Is the Great Multitude resurrected or translated? Or, maybe you're not interested in these particular details?

Thank post is a duzzy, However it will take some time to cut copy and paste to break it down, as I saw number of thoughts from the Scriptures that would most certainly ad to that,

Now Mike What part of the statements from the Pen do you diagree with, Great Controversy, 649, states that the 144,000 are separated from the other's living when translated.

On page 665, which states
" (1) Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion.(2) Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void,(3) and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. (4) And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}

While Ellen G. White spends more time writing about the 144,000 going through the time ofTribulation Reve. 7:9-17, John is talking about the greatmultitude, putting them together both groups go through the great tribulation. Otherwise the way many treat these verses they are overlooking one part to create an illusion for in incomplete truth.

Further Ellen G. White says that during the Time of Trouble there will be no marytrs as their lives taken would be a blessing to noone.

The eye of God, looking down the ages, was fixed upon the crisis which His people are to meet, when earthly powers shall be arrayed against them. Like the captive exile, they will be in fear of death by starvation or by violence. But the Holy One who divided the Red Sea before Israel, will manifest His mighty power and turn their captivity. "They shall be Mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." Malachi 3:17. If the blood of Christ's faithful witnesses were shed at this time, it would not, like the blood of the martyrs, be as seed sown to yield a harvest for God. Their fidelity would not be a testimony to convince others of the truth; for the obdurate heart has beaten back the waves of mercy until they return no more. If the righteous were now left to fall a prey to their enemies, it would be a triumph for the prince of darkness. Says the psalmist: "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. Christ has spoken: "Come, My people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isaiah 26:20, 21. Glorious will be the deliverance of those who have patiently waited for His coming and whose names are written in the book of life. {GC 634.1}

Well. I do not like to make such long posts, but this subject is so misunderstood, I figured it best to put my cards on the table all at once. Sorry.

Here's an insightful passages from Sister White regarding the Great Multitude:

DA 834.2
[After spending 40 days with His disciples Jesus returns to heaven] He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming.

Sister White compares the saints resurrected with Jesus to the great multitude resurrected when He returns. It seems clear in this passage that the Great Multitude will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Or did I miss something?

Mike compare this statement with what you have presented.

Where there is a type there is an antitype. Just as Christ was the true antitype of the Wavesheaf that was presented the day he arose.

They are representatives of those redeemed at the end of the age. (DA 786 p. 2, last part.)

Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on
786
the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord. For more than a thousand years this symbolic ceremony had been performed. From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him." 1 Thess. 4:14. {DA 785.4}
As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. {DA 786.1}
During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler's daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. {DA 786.2}
These went into the city, and appeared unto many, declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we be risen with Him. Thus was immortalized the sacred truth of the resurrection. The risen saints bore witness to the truth of the words, "Thy dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise." Their resurrection was an illustration of the fulfillment of the prophecy, "Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19. {DA 786.3}
To the believer, Christ is the resurrection and the life. In our Saviour the life that was lost through sin is restored; for He has life in Himself
787
to quicken whom He will. He is invested with the right to give immortality. The life that He laid down in humanity, He takes up again, and gives to humanity. "I am come," He said, "that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 10:10; 4:14; 6:54. {DA 786.4}

While all others bear their testimony and die leaving a record. The last part have no reason to die, to whom are they going to bear record by dieing. None. The Angels in heaven have already seen their record, and those that came before have alread been a testimony, This are those to whome are givent he "white Robe, and the Palm Branch" as typied by Enoch, Rev. 7:13; Eary Writings 40, P.P 89.

The 144,000 are a type of Elijah, as they have on a mantle that reaches down low, they bear the Message of Elijah. Both types being equal, both groups does not see death, as their type did not.

All types are perfect the truth is perfect.

Mike this helps to bring into focus even more clearly the work of the Sealing Angel. A clearer understanding of the House of Israel in prophecy needs to be made. When Ellen G. White says strive to be among the 144,000 thousand we need to understand what it is that God is trying to convey to us.

144,000 is not very many people. Yet they are the most important class talked about int the Scriptures. These are they that have perfected the Character of Christ and give a solemn message such has never been given under circumstances never before experience.

Whitlee

Whitlie, from what I understand about the 144,000 the only difference between them and those who are resurrected - so far as character perfection is concerned - is that they are translated alive when Jesus arrives. Concerning character perfection the 144,000 are no more perfect than the rest of God's ransomed and redeemed. We are born again morally perfect, it's not something only the 144,000 achieve during the end of time. Moral perfection has been available to born again believers since the beginning of time.

John.......

There is no direct Biblical reference to the "Seal of God" as being the Sabbath, nor is there any direct Biblical reference to the "Mark of the Beast" as being Sunday Worship. These interpretations are unique to SDA only.

The Bible says that Jesus and the 144,000 are the "First-fruits". I would not feel comfortable in contradicting these very clear statements.

Let us look at this logically.

Jesus is called the first-fruits because He was the first to be resurrected after His atoning death. The group of saints that were resurrected along with Jesus should also be considered as first-fruits in that they were also the first to be resurrected after Jesus Death.

There is a very clear chronological order in the presentation of the visions to John. When these visions are compared to the historical record, it can be seen as to how history has, is and will be fulfilling these prophecies.

Mike.......

I am very much aware that my statements may be in conflict with some statements made by Mrs. White.

Let us look at the quotation that you provided……

In this quote Mrs. White states that the 144,000 are “Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."”

A closer look at Revelation 15 clearly reveals that the above description applies only to the “Great Multitude” and not to the “144,000”.

It would appear that Mrs. White has somehow confused these two groups.

The first appearance of the 144,000 in John’s vision takes place after the sixth seal is opened. The Sixth Seal is representative of the Second Coming of Christ, therefore if these scenes are to be interpreted in the order that they are presented, it would appear that the 144,000 are in Heaven at the time of their sealing. We would reach this conclusion, because we believe that all of the saved saints will be in Heaven immediately after the Second Coming.

The opening of the Seventh Seal naturally takes place after the Sixth Seal, so we must interpret these prophetic events as taking place AFTER the Second Coming.

Simply put…..Jesus returns the second time and takes His saints to Heaven. The great multitude of saints joins the 144,000 already in Heaven. The great calamities depicted in the Seventh Seal then fall upon the earth. This chronological interpretation is corroborated in Revelation 14-16.

Bob

Hi myarsman,
There is Biblical reference as to the Mark of the Beast actually including worship and it seems to be made a big deal of in fact it is so much of an issue.. well lets see... How do we know this?

quote:

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Revelation 13:15
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

---

Worship apparently seems to be a very big issue with image of the beast to exercise it's authority in the presence of the first beast.
You have to have quite a bit of clout to make the world worship in a particular fashion... WHo are the superpowers?
We also know that those that do not worship the beast keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

quote:

---

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

---

We can prove without a shadow of a doubt at who the saints are, and the contrast between those who are sealed by God and those who receive the mark is as clear as night and day.

The Seal of God is directly reflected by the keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus which is a stamp,seal (in so many words) whereas the mark of the beast is the direct opposite, and this includes the Sabbath. You can't claim to say 9 out of 10 are Ok when it was 10 that are given, and Jesus kept the Sabbath, and made the Sabbath for man.. This is really trivial but you get the picture since it is written in the Bible quite clearly.


As for the 144,000 on earth and there being people in heaven and Jesus coming down again to go back up again to come again... It is unusually confusing for something so simple and confuses me very easily.

Since the 144,000 seem by a process of elimination and simple guessing to be alive on earth correct? Yes they are alive and on this earth..
Ok Now that we know that they are alive and on this earth and Jesus comes for them as we can read clearly from 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 there would obviously be so large a group of people that are so great in number result in a great multitude which no man could number.
We also know that there is no pre-trib,post-trib,secret rapture preterist view of what is plainly written in the Bible.
The dead in Christ shall rise first, and those that are alive and remain (Those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus which must not be a whole lot left at this time)will be caught up in the air i.e 1st resurrection...done deal..time to go home and spend some time with the Lord (1,000 years)

God Bless,
Will

Note Myarman,

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Cor. 15:19, 20. {FLB 180.1}
Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord. For more than a thousand years this symbolic ceremony had been performed. From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. {FLB 180.2}


Christ the Branch, Zech. 3:8 is the firstfruit of the Dead as Paul points out and Mrs White commends.
The 144,000 the Branch in antiype to Christ, Isa. 4:2, Pk. 590,91, is the first fruit of the redeemed, Living.

Note also Christ is called the Servant,
The 144,000, are called servants, sealed before the four winds are released.

What is the work of a servant, but to do the will of his master.

Christ began the work of His Father in the with His message the Gospel of the Kingdom in his day.

The 144,000 are to make the CAll COME OUT OF BABYLON BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER PLAGUES.

These are Doctrines that were being taught in the days of my mother 70 years ago.

Now Mike,

Prophecy is not of private interpretation, What has been placed in the above quotes is from the Pen of Inspiration, they are not my ideas.

To understand the nature of the charater of the 144,00 it is neccesary to place them in the chronological order that the Pen has placed them

Jeremiah saw the 144,000
Jeremiah 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee:

And he saw their work,

Jeremiah 51:19 The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the LORD of hosts is his name.
Jeremiah 51:20 Thou art my battle ax and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;

Joel saw them at work

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joel 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joel 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joel 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joel 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joel 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Ellen G.White saw them during and after the shaking

I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it. All fear of their relatives was gone, and the truth alone was exalted to them. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth; it was dearer and more precious than life. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel." {Early Writings 272}

Isaiah saw the three distinct groups that would be saved.

Isaiah 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
Isaiah 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isaiah 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
Isaiah 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be entreated of them, and shall heal them.
Isaiah 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isaiah 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isaiah 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Who is Egypt? In the days of Moses, Egypt was typified as a rebellious world.

Who is Assyria? in the days of Jonah they typified a people who had not completely severed their connection with God.

Who is Israel Mine inheritance?

Exodus 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.


Egypt represents those in Babylon that did not know God, but heard his message.
Assyria represents those in Protestantism and Catholocism that had access to the Bible and found Christ with-in it.

Israel my son represents those who had the complete Sanctuary message understood it and the high calling and being prepared under the faint call of the three angels message, were able to give the Three Angels Message when it swelled into a loud cry during the time of Trouble in which the Sabbath was preached more fully E W. 33

The Preparing to give the loud cry message is the most important today, This requires a complete searching of all the prophecies concernning the the restoration of all the covenant promises that link this wonderful doctrine.

Whitlee