Bob.

If you go back to the previous posts you will find that both Paul and Mrs White referred to those that came up at Jesus resurrection as first fruits of those that sleep, 1 Corinthians 15:20. Those righteous that come up in the special resurrection of Daneil 12:2, and 1 thess. 4:13-18, consequently are the 2ond fruits of those that sleep in the dust.

When the Great controversy is read according to Scripture time frames we see a different picture regarding the traditions of what we have held.

Rev. 7, says hold back the four winds untill my servants are sealed. V.1-4, this is still a future event. Reve. 14. says they are the first fruits of the redeemed. putting these together, we have,

Hold back the four winds untill the 144,000, the first fruits of the living redeemed, are sealed are sealed for translation. Great Controvers 649 shows that the 144,000 were separated from the Living that were translated. Hence there the two groups as first fruits of the living and second fruits of the living are displaced before the Universe.

Whitlie.

Bob, the way you posted those quotes definitely gives the impression Sister White believed the 144,000 were resurrected with Jesus. However, I agree with Whitlie that your quotes together with the other SOP quotes teach that the 144,000 are translated alive when Jesus arrives.

Mike,

look at these two contrasting statements from the Great Controversy. In Chapter 40, first statement, Ellen G White is writing about deliverance at Jesus coming to gathered the redeemed of the earth. Living and Dead. But in chapter 42, second statement, she is writing about those who are watching Satan and his host be destroyed. Two different events calling for different aproaches to describe them. On page 665 there is a perfect type for each of these four groups.

The martyrs of the ages, typified by Abel.
The dead in Christ typified by Moses,
The 144,000 typified by Elijah
The Great Multitude typied by Enoch.

All of these surround the the Great White throne in heaven.

Just as ancient Israel was supposed to be a nation of teachers before the LORD, in their day, as the experience of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, show. PK 66,67, chron. 9, 1 Kings 10. Futher when the Ethiopian Jews got to Israel 20 years ago they were expecting to see a Magnigicent Temple, and were in distraught to here the history of it's demise. Consider Hezikiah, when the Babylonian ambassadors came to visit, God chastised him for failing to show them God, when he had shown them his wealth instead. Ancient Israel was to be a nations of "servants" to the Most High God, They were the type that Modern Israel the 144,000 are the true antitype. A rereading of Mrs Whites comments on this subject is most important.

GC 650.1
The heirs of God have come from garrets, from hovels, from dungeons, from scaffolds, from mountains, from deserts, from the caves of the earth, from the caverns of the sea.... They stand before the throne clad in richer robes than the most honored of the earth have ever worn. They are crowned with diadems more glorious than were ever placed upon the brow of earthly monarchs. The days of pain and weeping are forever ended. The King of glory has wiped the tears from all faces; every cause of grief has been removed. Amid the waving of palm branches they pour forth a song of praise, clear, sweet, and harmonious; every voice takes up the strain, until the anthem swells through the vaults of heaven: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And all the inhabitants of heaven respond in the ascription: "Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever." Revelation 7:10, 12.

"Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}
Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}
The redeemed raise a song of praise that echoes and re-echoes through the vaults of heaven: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." Verse 10. And angel and seraph unite their voices in adoration. As the redeemed have beheld the power and malignity of Satan, they have seen, as never before, that no power but that of Christ could have made them conquerors. In all that shining throng there are none to ascribe salvation to themselves, as if they had prevailed by their own power and goodness. Nothing is said of what they have done or suffered; but the burden of every song, the keynote of every anthem, is: Salvation to our God and unto the Lamb." Gr. Con. 665

It is left to us to search the Scriptures and put all truth in the correct time frame so that we know what the present truth of the hour is. If we fail in making this effort, let other opinions prevail, then when the Trumpet is to be sounded then we will be like Jehu, and run with no message, thus being lost.

with Sabbath Blessings

Whitlee in portland oregon.

addendum,

The Ethiopians had the books of Moses and the Judges for three thousand years, all because the Queen of Sheba came to visit. Had not Solomon been responsible at that stage of his life, this blessing of the message going to ethiopia would not have been made possible.

The emphasis is that all Israel was to be a nation of teachers and they failed. In what they failed to do the 144,000 with a spotless character will do. Then all the promises made to Ancient Israel will have been fulfilled in the church. PK 713,14.

Blessings.

Whitlie, I agree with you that Sister White applies Rev 7:13-17 to the Great Multitude. But she also applies it to the 144,000. And still again she applies it to everyone saved in kingdom of God. Thus we cannot cite just one of her applications to determine what she believed about the Great Multitude.

DA 834.2
[After spending 40 days with His disciples Jesus returns to heaven] He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming."

Everyone taken to heaven, whether by way of resurrection or translation, 1) wears a robe made white in the blood of Jesus, 2) waves palm branches, 3) sings to the glory of God, 4) came out of great tribulation, 5) suffered hunger, thirst and discomfort, and 6) serves God day and night for eternity.

Again, these things are true of everyone taken to heaven. In light of Sister White's generic use of Rev 7:13-17 I believe the Great Multitude symbolizes all the resurrected saints taken to heaven and not a second or separate group translated alive when Jesus arrives.

But there is one detail in verse 15 that can apply only to the 144,000 according to Sister White - "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

"And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {EW 18.2}

I'll wait for your response to the last half of my other post. Thank you.

Mike,

Forgive me, looking back I though I replied to the second part of your post, if not point it out to these dull eyes.

Mrs. White reminds us to consider time and place when reading her writings. (she was 17, when this vision is recorded)

While it is accepted that all have the Robe of righteousness when we get to heaven. Not all have the same type of robe. The Scriptures record only one Robe, while E G White records two. That is the 144,000 thousand while having a white robe they do not wear the Robe as described in Rev. 7:9. Ellen G. White in her first vision (E W.16,17) saw this.

"We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all

clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city. Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us, "You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in." We all marched in and felt that we had a perfect right in the city." {EW 16.2}

Since Elijah is the only prophet recorded to wear a mantle it shows then that they 144,000 were a type of Him and had the message that he preached. Mal. 4:4,5,6. It is true that they alone are allowed to inter into the Temple in Heaven, I believe that they are given the place that Lucifer had, As Lucifer was the Chief of the Angels in heaven and that was a privilege that he had.

While John was shown the great multitude going through the great tribulation, E.G. White was show that the 144,000 also went through it. However, both groups had to go through the time of trouble to get to this period in which the angel points out. That is the 7 last plagues. Their reward is found in verse 17. Now a problem question, I will leave you to answer. Understand first that E W 33, says the Sabbath was preached more fully during the time of trouble, and G.C. 634, says no one is allowed to die or be martyred during the time of trouble. And 665, says, "Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs."

G. C. 665, shows the various classes of the peoples that were taken to heaven, It shows all groups worshiping before the Throne, this would include the 144, 000. Clear distinction is made as to who is alive and who is resurrecte.

G.C. 649 shows two classes of living translated, The 144,000 and those who they were separated from.

Now the problem question.

Since Ellen G. White differentiates the differences between the living and the dead, How is it possible to place Rev. 7:9, A mong the dead?

With blessings

Whitlee

In the following passage Sister White describes the resurrection and translation of the redeemed of all ages. She goes on and depicts Jesus crowning them with crowns in heaven. And then she singles out the 144,000 who were translated alive. Then she resumes talking about all the redeemed.

To me it is interesting she says nothing about the Great Multitude who, as you assert, also refused the MOB and endured the plagues. Here she only talks about the 144,000 who are special because they did not receive the MOB. Why not make special mention of the Great Multitude too?

In this particular context she applies Rev 7:14-17 to the 144,000 and not the Great Multitude. But then she applies Rev 7:10,12 to the Great Multitude. By specifically applying the song of Moses and the Lamb to the 144,000 and then applying the song in Rev 7:10,12 to the Great Multitude it makes sense to conclude that they symbolize the redeemed of all ages not translated with the 144,000.

The Great Multitude symbolizes the redeemed of all ages except the 144,000 (they are symbolized separately). There are only two ways to enter heaven 1) by resurrection and 2) by translation. Thus, in order to account for everyone depicted in Rev 7:9-12, it is obvious to me (since the 144,000 are translated alive) that the Great Multitude must have been resurrected (the only other way to enter heaven).

I suppose some one could argue that Rev 7:9-12 does not depict everyone who is in heaven just the Great Multitude. But that doesn't make sense in light of the fact this passage describes Jesus crowning the faithful. Why wouldn't the 144,000 and the rest of the redeemed be present too?

GC 644-651
"Amid the reeling of the earth, the flash of lightning, and the roar of thunder, the voice of the Son of God calls forth the sleeping saints....

"The living righteous are changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air....

"Before entering the City of God, the Saviour bestows upon His followers the emblems of victory and invests them with the insignia of their royal state....

"With unutterable love, Jesus welcomes His faithful ones to the joy of their Lord. The Saviour's joy is in seeing, in the kingdom of glory, the souls that have been saved by His agony and humiliation....

.... {647.2 - 648.2}

"Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:14-17. {GC 648.3}

.... {GC 649.1}

The heirs of God have come from garrets, from hovels, from dungeons, from scaffolds, from mountains, from deserts, from the caves of the earth, from the caverns of the sea. On earth they were "destitute, afflicted, tormented." Millions went down to the grave loaded with infamy because they steadfastly refused to yield to the deceptive claims of Satan. By human tribunals they were adjudged the vilest of criminals. But now "God is judge Himself." Psalm 50:6. Now the decisions of earth are reversed. "The rebuke of His people shall He take away." Isaiah 25:8. "They shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord." He hath appointed "to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness." Isaiah 62:12; 61:3. They are no longer feeble, afflicted, scattered, and oppressed. Henceforth they are to be ever with the Lord. They stand before the throne clad in richer robes than the most honored of the earth have ever worn. They are crowned with diadems more glorious than were ever placed upon the brow of earthly monarchs. The days of pain and weeping are forever ended. The King of glory has wiped the tears from all faces; every cause of grief has been removed. Amid the waving of palm branches they pour forth a song of praise, clear, sweet, and harmonious; every voice takes up the strain, until the anthem swells through the vaults of heaven: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And all the inhabitants of heaven respond in the ascription: "Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever." Revelation 7:10, 12. {GC 650.1}

If the Great Multitude 1) refuse to receive the MOB and 2) endure the plagues and 3) are translated alive when Jesus arrives - just like the 144,000 - it is curious to me that the Bible and the SOP do not both clearly describe it this way. Instead she goes on and on about how the 144,000 are special because they survived JTOT unto the honor and glory of God, and yet nothing is said of the Great Multitude who, according to your view, experienced the same thing. Why not?

Mike,

read the chapter "God's people delivered"

Page 644, Christ is here, calls the righteous dead from the grave., 645, the living righteous are changed.

bottom645,
Before entering the City of God, the Saviour bestows upon this followers the emblens of victory and invest them with the insignia of their royal estate. The glittering ranks are drawn upn i the form of a holw square about their king whose form rises in majesty high above the saint and angel.... 646, throughout the unnumbered host.......647.......AS they gather about the reat white throne, ..... 647 AS the ransomed ones are welcomed tothe city of God, ....... 649, These (144,00.) having been translated from the earth, from the living are counted as the first fruits unto God and the lamb.

from the picture here, Mrs. white saw everyone before the throne of God. The righteous dead, the translated 144,000, the translated living (great multitude)

In early writings 270, we see the shaking caused by a message sent to Laodicea.

We see those who (271) were not shaken out by rejecting the message, beccome a army, and deliver a message to another group. (bottom page 272)

On page 277, Mrs White begins dicussion of the Loud Cry, a uniting of another message with her message. The Cry is made come out of Babylon.

278, Servants of God, (Rev.7) are seen giving the loud Cry message.

Lastly, Mike, There is the National Sunday law that applies to the United States, Rev.13:11-7, then there is the international Sunday law that applies to the rest of the world, Rev. 17:12-17.
The great multitude are also tested by Sunday laws as well.

So while Ellen G. Whites emphasis is upon the 144,000, the reasoning being that they have a special message to bear,(7 b c 978) just as ancient Israel did, that does not negate that she did not see the great multitude as did the ancient prophets/

Blessings

Whitlee

Whitlie, isn't it amazing that we can use exactly the same references and conclude exactly the opposite thing? I guess that's the beauty of freedom. Time will tell whether the Great Multitude is resurrected or translated. In the meantime, may God help us "Go, and sin no more."