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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Tom]
#95067
01/29/08 11:31 PM
01/29/08 11:31 PM
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Rick H]
#95072
01/30/08 03:10 AM
01/30/08 03:10 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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How do you then see Romans 6... I see a clear promise of victory over sin, but not a promise of lack of desire to sin.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: asygo]
#95077
01/30/08 02:37 PM
01/30/08 02:37 PM
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OP
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Paul continues on this same line of thought and in Romans 8 makes it even clearer what the Spirit does...
Life Through the Spirit 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Romans 8:1-14
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Rick H]
#95080
01/30/08 03:12 PM
01/30/08 03:12 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Paul continues on this same line of thought and in Romans 8 makes it even clearer what the Spirit does... Again, it is a clear promise of victory over sin, but no promise of the eradication of the desire to sin. Consider the constant call to walk in the Spirit, and forsake the flesh. That would not be necessary if the desire to walk in the flesh was gone. As Paul said in Galatians, the flesh and the Spirit are always pulling against each other. Here, he tells us the same promise we find in Galatians - that if we walk in the Spirit, we will put to death the deeds of the flesh. But even while walking in the Spirit, the flesh constantly calls for gratification. So he tells us in Romans 13:14, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts."
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: asygo]
#95084
01/31/08 12:51 PM
01/31/08 12:51 PM
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Then how, my brother would you read this verse, as how would we be able to live for righteousness if we did not first die to sins.
22"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."[e] 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:22-24
As Always Your Brother in Christ Rick
Last edited by Richard; 01/31/08 12:53 PM.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Rick H]
#95090
01/31/08 03:17 PM
01/31/08 03:17 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Then how, my brother would you read this verse, as how would we be able to live for righteousness if we did not first die to sins.... 1 Peter 2:22-24 We cannot live for righteousness unless we die to sin. But dying to sin does not necessarily mean that we completely lose the desire to sin. When temptation comes, the flesh and Spirit will lust against each other, pulling us in different directions. We must then use our wills - the power of choice - to decide which call we will answer. Since we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, we must not respond to the flesh - we don't speak to the dead. This is a daily, even moment by moment exercise. That being said, there's this to think about: All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: asygo]
#95280
02/05/08 04:04 PM
02/05/08 04:04 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I agree that born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, will not have a desire to sin. However, their fallen flesh nature will continue to tempt them from within to sin. Sinful flesh will always desire us to sin. But in Christ, and like Christ, we will recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature. Such fallenness does not contaminate character.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135429
07/28/11 01:11 PM
07/28/11 01:11 PM
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OP
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I agree that born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, will not have a desire to sin. However, their fallen flesh nature will continue to tempt them from within to sin. Sinful flesh will always desire us to sin. But in Christ, and like Christ, we will recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature. Such fallenness does not contaminate character. Would you consider that to be a plane of sinless perfection were like Enoch, God could take you or just being on a level of Job, a just and upright man?
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Rick H]
#135435
07/29/11 02:13 PM
07/29/11 02:13 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Yes, the newborn believers Peter describes in the following passage are safe to translate alive.
1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
It doesn't require years of time on station as Christians to qualify for translation. Ellen wrote:
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
Such people are safe to save as is. They can spend the rest of eternity in heaven maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135458
07/30/11 01:27 PM
07/30/11 01:27 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Yes, the newborn believers Peter describes in the following passage are safe to translate alive.
1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
It doesn't require years of time on station as Christians to qualify for translation. Ellen wrote:
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
Such people are safe to save as is. They can spend the rest of eternity in heaven maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Where in that statement, Mike, did you see Mrs. White speaking of the saved? I see her speaking of the sinner. Sinners are not all saved. Do you think it is enough for the sinner to "loath himself?" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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