James said:

quote:

---

Sabbath law and other commandments contained in the Ten Commandment would never be a law that has the legal right over men if it is not made in written, God knew this, that’s why he made it written so that it became legal. Otherwise he has no basic reason whatsoever that is legal to judge men and saved them through Christ redemption.

---

Are you saying that because the 10 Commandments were not written down on anything before Sinai that nobody had to keep it? Can you back up what you just said above with a clear and concise Bible text? And does the SOP say what you said about that?

While you are doing that, let us take another look at the Bible texts that Charlene provided about the manna. Did you notice the LORD'S reaction to their not observing it in Exo 16:28, "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"

One thing I noticed is that His "commandments" and His "laws" obviously existed and were also known prior to them being written down on stone at Sinai.

Would the LORD have expected them to keep it, if they didn't have to keep it until it was written down on something? I don't see any hint of that here.

I am not asking for a debate from you however, if you expect me, or any of us, to look at the verses you have posted in response to my earlier post, in all fairness to this topic you should first be willing to tell us what those verses are saying that Charlene posted here, also in response to my earlier post to you. I will also look further into the verses Charlene posted.

[ December 02, 2002, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Mike.

I don’t know which denomination that teaches the law of God was ended in Christ. All I know is that all denominations teaches the law of God is still exist and binding upon all men, this includes Protestant, Catholic, Pentecost etc. The only difference between them and SDA is that SDA take 7th day Sabbath instead of 1st day Sabbath, which make them has superiority over other denomination.

What I presented here is that the law was ended in Christ 2000 years ago and does not stand as a standard of judgment for righteousness to Christ’s believers. On the contrary keeping and obeying the law and made it has a legal right over men by putting them under its jurisdiction is not the teaching of the Gospel of Christ but a gospel of man.

Is this a new “gospel”? I don’t know, what I know it is the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

Moreover, Revelation 12:17 does not mean those who are the remnant of the true church of Christ are those who keep and obey the Ten Commandment and were under its jurisdiction. It says those Remnant keep the law of God, in a sense that the Remnant have the love of God in their heart that made them have deeds of love to their fellowman, which fulfils the law demands.

There is a big difference and distinction between being under the law that requires obedience and keeping (having) the love of God that is shown in deeds of love to our fellowman, although their deeds looks the same. The first keep the Ten Commandment, the second love his fellowman; both kept the commandment of God that was shown in their deeds but the first only the letter that doesn’t fulfils the intent of the law, which is love. The first just kept the commandments of God that comes from their own desire and remain a self-loving man; the second have a change of character that was brought by the Spirit through faith. The first doesn’t live in faith, the second lives in faith and walk after the Spirit.

How could the dragon (Satan) made war with those who were under the jurisdiction of the law meanwhile they were still self-loving people, they still have Satan’s nature? The dragon made war with those who loves his fellowman because they shows deeds that Satan could not perform and thus were his enemy.

You were trap in the view that the Ten Commandment is the law of God that must be kept by Christ believers, although in the Gospel of Christ taught by Paul, Peter, James and John they never indicate this because they all knew that Christ believers MUST love his fellowman in order they might be FIT for heaven where they are going to go, and this could not be obtained by a believer who is under the law, since he will only be under dominion of sin, which is his nature (Romans 6:14).

In His love

James S

Daryl.

What Charlene has posted were word spoken to Israel, who would become under the law, chosen among the people on earth to carried out God’s great plan of salvation.

As I have said, if God didn’t made his spoken words written and put Israel under its jurisdiction, God will never have the legal right to save men through Christ redemption before the eyes of the universe. Because, firstly he must have a legal right through a written law that might legally judge and condemns men with death for their sins in breaking the law, just then he has the legal right to save men through Christ redemption.

Since death already reigned even before the law came in effect and thus sin is not taken into account, he MUST made a law that has the legal right to judge and condemn men for their sins, in order the death that reign in the world has a legal cause, which is the wages of sin and this sins has a legal right for the cause of the death because it is a transgression to a legal law of God that didn’t create sins and death.

Now, God has a legal right to act in saving men that will shows his great love to the universe especially Satan. This act will shows God’s great love, mercy and grace and that he is a just and righteous God, meanwhile this will unmask Satan’s great lie and the source of his rebellion.

But as the focus of giving the law to men (Israel) is to carry out God’s great plan of salvation through Jesus Christ, the law must have a function that lead people to Christ. At the time when Christ fulfilled the law, automatically the law functions ends. The ministry of the law that lead to condemnation and death in order Christ may have the legal right to save men came to an end at the cross at his death, from there on another ministry was introduced to carry out the perfection of God’s plan, which is the ministry of the Spirit that gives life eternal.

This is all clearly shown in Pauline epistle, the great picture of how God save men through Christ by firstly introduce a legal law that has the legal right to judge and condemn men with death, a law that leads its law keeper to Christ.

Since the law could not justify its law keepers for their obedience, that means no law keeper fulfils the law demands especially the intent of the law that was based on love that seeks no self. This happened because the nature of men is self-love that transgress the intent of the law, and the Scripture taught us that no man could change his nature. Therefore, Israel was justified by their faith without the deeds of the law and so would be the whole world. The difference is that Israel was under the law till the cross of Christ and the whole world were not and would never be. This is the way of God to recreate man from his self-love nature to the love of God, through faith that enables the Spirit to work out in him by imparting the love of God in his heart.

He then willl be judge by his deeds (does he has love to his fellowman) and if he does, he would be justified by his faith, because only through faith it might happen.

All verses quoted by Charlene has no means for us, Christ believers at the end of time, it was for Israel.

In his love

James S

Daryl.

Don't you know that the 10 Commandments are simply a summary of all the laws that have been in existence long before Sinai?

Unquote.

Yes, I know!

That’s why the Ten Commandment can be summarized in 1. Love to God and 2. Love to our fellowman and can be summarized again in LOVE; Love is the fulfillment of the law.

But you must know it well, that the Ten Commandment is not LOVE, the Ten Commandment is a written law that its spirit is love, it shows us that the law of God has superiority over the law of man, which is only a written law but has no spirit. Man’s law doesn’t judge and condemn a man that didn’t kill another man, although he hates this man very much, but it is not the same case with the law of God. Meanwhile LOVE is a character; the love of a man after the fall is selfish, but the love of God is unselfish. This make a man even he kept the Ten Commandment perfectly is still a law-breaker since his nature transgress the love of God. The Ten Commandment was God’s legal law that have the right to judge and condemn men with death penalty, but LOVE is not a legal law and can not condemn man with death, on the contrary, love gives life.

Here are the differences and distinctions between the Ten Commandment and LOVE as the principle of heaven, which is the spirit of the law.

The Ten Commandment.

1. A written law that has a legal right over men to judge and condemn those who breaks it.
2. Effective from Sinai till the cross of Christ.
3. Putting men under it jurisdiction and therefore it must be obeyed with death penalty for transgression.
4. Locked up law keepers in prison of sin, which means even Job, Moses, David etc kept the law with faith but their obedience to the law doesn’t made them righteous, they were still law-breakers before the law but were justified by their faith and saved by grace. If their obedience made them righteous, they didn’t need Christ.
5. Keeping it doesn’t need faith because the law is not based on faith, which means the purpose of the law is not making men righteous but is it to make them sins all the more (to increase their transgressions), so that their need for Christ would be absolute.
6. Leads to Christ; through the Ten Commandment they were made transgressors and through the Sacrificial law they were introduced to Christ’s ministry that will redeem and save them. Not one of it may stand alone, otherwise it is no longer a law that leads to Christ.
7. A ministry that leads to condemnation and death, a law that kills.
8. Ends in Christ at the cross.
9. Keeping it does not fulfils LOVE.
10. A standard of righteousness for those who were under the law but NOT heaven standard of righteousness for those who are going to heaven.

L O V E

1. A basic principle based on God’s nature and has not a legal right to judge and condemns men, just simply those who has this love is FIT for heaven.
2. Exist from the beginning till eternity, because it is the nature of God who is eternal.
3. It is a choice to have it and done by the Spirit. Not putting men with penalty of death, on the contrary love gives life.
4. Released men from death and the cause of death, which is sin (the sting of death).
5. Having it in your heart needs faith, because ONLY through faith a change of nature from a selfish man to a man that loves his fellow man might happen, solely done by the Spirit.
6. Leads to heaven, because only those who has the love of God in their heart are welcome in heaven to live there, with Christ as a start through faith in him.
7. Obtained through the ministry of the Spirit, that gives life.
8. Begins in Christ through faith.
9. Having LOVE, fulfils the law.
10. A standard of righteousness of heaven and for those who are going to heaven, LOVE is God’s nature and God is righteous.

There might be more but I could not think of it now.

The Ten Commandment and LOVE is jus like a glass and the water in it, the glass could not fill the water but the water filled the glass. The Ten Commandment is not a fulfillment of the law but love is the fulfillment of the law. The way to kept it is different, keeping the law is an effort of ourselves and thus it is works. And since it is by works it was based on man’s nature work but having kept LOVE is through faith and not of work.

In His love

James S

[ December 05, 2002, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: James Saptenno ]

James,

You keep focusing on the fact that there wasn't any written laws of God prior to Sinai, and as a result God couldn't legally condemn anybody for breaking any unwritten laws.

What legal right did God, therefore, have to destroy the world in a great flood and only rescue Noah and his family in the ark?

What legal right did God, therefore, have to even cast the devil and a 3rd of the angels out of heaven?

What legal right did God, therefore, have to cast Adam and Eve and all of mankind out of the Garden of Eden?

What legal right did God, therefore, have to destroy Sodom and Gormorrah?

Were these acts of God against all of the above based on their breaking of His unwritten laws?

James, so long as you insist that being under the jurisdiction of God's law is evil we cannot carry on a normal Bible study. I believe in Jesus we are no longer under the condemnation of God's law. I call it condemnation, and you call it jurisdiction.

James,

You post so much material that I believe it confuses people. I'm going to put down what I think you are trying to say, and you tell me if that is essentially what you are saying okay?

Before conversion men can "keep" the letter of the law perfectly and still not be saved because they are acting out of their own sinful flesh.

After conversion Christ lives in us and we are filled with His Spirit, therefore we have the character of Christ. Therefore any keeping of the law after conversion is a result of Christ living within us, not our own works or pathetic attempts to keep the law.

Before we are converted we try to keep the ten commandments out of fear for our lives, to try to attain salvation of ourselves. After we are converted we "live" the commandments as a result of our very natures being changed into Christ's likeness.

Am I close?

Mike.

I believe in Jesus we are no longer under the condemnation of God's law. I call it condemnation, and you call it jurisdiction.

Unquote.

I know that you are going to say this and I'm waiting for that.

I believe this is the biggest error in Christian's theology by believing that in Christ there is no condemnation of the law.

Please give me your best answer and scripture refference to support this wrong idea.

In His love

James S

[ December 06, 2002, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: James Saptenno ]

Wendy.

Thanks trying to understand my view.

Quote.
Before conversion men can "keep" the letter of the law perfectly and still not be saved because they are acting out of their own sinful flesh.
Unquote.

Correct! You are right!

Quote.
After conversion Christ lives in us and we are filled with His Spirit, therefore we have the character of Christ. Therefore any keeping of the law after conversion is a result of Christ living within us, not our own works or pathetic attempts to keep the law.
Unquote.

I corrected it according to my view that I believes correspond with the Gospel of Christ.

“After conversion Christ lives in us and we are filled with his Spirit, therefore we have the character of Christ. Therefore our deeds conforms with heaven principle since LOVE ruled our heart and LOVE is the fulfillment of the law, even there is no law for us to keep and obey (but remember that not keeping the law is not living in sin that transgress the principle of heaven, it is just simply because there is no law to keep). It is the result of Christ living within us, not our own works.”

Quote.
Before we are converted we try to keep the ten commandments out of fear for our lives, to try to attain salvation of ourselves. After we are converted we "live" the commandments as a result of our very natures being changed into Christ's likeness.
Unquote.

Before we are converted we try to keep the Ten Commandments because we didn’t know that it is ended in Christ that has saved us, we try to build a parallel way to heaven through the law. After we converted we “live” with the principle of heaven “LOVE” that was shed abroad in our heart by the Spirit as a result of our very natures being changed into Christ likeness.

Quote.
Am I close?
Unquote.

You are close when you delete “keeping the commandments.”

In His love

James S

James, your assertion that rebith eliminates the law is absurd. Heaven's principle of faith and love does not do away with commandment keeping. On the contrary, God's love empowers us to obey His law perfectly.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 13:10
Love is the fulfilling [not cancellation] of the law.

We are unable live in harmony with God's law of love until we are born again. That's when we begin keeping the law in accordance with the example of Jesus.

The idea that the law did not exist before Sinai is non-sense. The Bible and SOP are very clear that the law is a transcript of God's character and has existed from eternity with God. This is true whether or not some of the details were not articulated until Creation or Sinai.

Jesus does not do away with the law when we're converted. Instead, He writes it in our hearts and minds. He writes the same thing that is written on the tables of stone located in the ark of the covenant in the heavenly sanctuary.

Heb 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Far from eliminating the law, Jesus makes it more personal by inscribing it upon the tables of our heart and mind.