This is to let MM know that I sent him a couple of PMs, which hasn't anything to do with this topic.

Questions.

1.Why is this necessary?
2.Does each sin have a certain amount of pain associated with it? So that if you tell a white lie you have to burn for say 15 seconds, but a really big sin, like adultery, might mean several hours or a day of burning?



I'm interested in the idea that God supernaturally keeps people alive so that He can burn them alive in order to pay for their sins by suffering the physical pain of being burned alive. I find it unspeakably incredible that anyone could believe this to be true.

Whether or not God artificially keeps sinners alive in the lake of fire in order to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness I cannot say. It makes sense. And, yes, each sin receives punishment according to its sinfulness. Not all sins receive the same punishment.

As I said earlier - "The fact God keeps sinners artificially alive is what makes it possible for sinners to commit more than one sin. Otherwise they would die after the first sin, and there would be no reason to keep them artificially alive in order for them to suffer in proportion to that one sin.

But because they have committed hundreds of sins, it is necessary for God to keep them artificially alive in order to suffer punishment for each and every sin they committed (instead of dying prematurely for the first sin they committed)."

The following insights confirm these observations:

Matthew
16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke
12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

2 Corinthians
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Revelation
2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

4T 249
Do not for a moment deceive yourself with the thought that your sin will not bring its merited punishment. Your transgressions will be visited with the rod, because you have had the light, yet have walked directly contrary to it. "That servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes." {4T 249.1}

5T 160
Ministers of Christ, I admonish you: "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine." Do not excuse sins in yourselves which you reprove in others. If you preach on meekness and love, let these graces be exemplified in your own life. If you urge others to be kind, courteous, and attentive at home, let your own example give force to your admonitions. As you have received greater light than others, so is your responsibility increased. You will be beaten with many stripes if you neglect to do your Master's will. {5T 160.1}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

GC 660
It is at this time that, as foretold by Paul, "the saints shall judge the world." 1 Corinthians 6:2. In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then the portion which the wicked must suffer is meted out, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the book of death. {GC 660.4}

GC 673
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

MM, the texts you cited just prove that sin will be punished, which I of course agree with. Where you and I differ is that I believe the suffering that takes place is a natural result to the evil committed and the light rejected, not an artificial result.

That is, I believe sinners who have sinned more and rejected more light will suffer more when that sin is revealed, and the light that is rejected is made clear, because they've committed more sin and rejected more light. It simply has to be that way. God's not doing something to make it that way; it *is* that way.

This suffering is due to the impact of revealing truth to the conscience. Jesus refers to this as "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Ellen White talks about this in "The Great Controversy" especially, as well as other places.

That God is like fire is brought out in many places in Scripture, and Ellen White uses the same imagery. As the light of truth comes upon the conscience, it burns like fire. Seeing God is like seeing fire. It's blinding, like looking at the sun. Seeing sin in its true bearing causes suffering. Again, EGW speaks to this in detail. I'm assuming you're familiar with this, so I won't cite references here. I'll just mention this one, a familiar one:



This brings out that what's involved is not literal fire, because the same fire which slays the wicked "imparts life" to the righteous. This fire is God. Being in the presence of God is life for the righteous, but death for the wicked. It's pleasant for one group, and unpleasant for the other. The group for whom it is unpleasant voluntarily chooses to be excluded from heaven (this is discussed GC 541-543).

Your idea, as I understand it, is that if God did not do something artificial to keep man alive, then man would die immediately upon committing a sin. You say if that happened, then there would be no need for further punishment, and I agree, but feel constrained to point out that according to how you view things your idea is inconsistent with your own beliefs. This is because, according to your beliefs, before dying the person who committed the sin would have to be punished for the sin. They would still have to be burned alive for that one sin.

Going on, your idea is that since God does something to keep men alive, even though they sin, they keep accumulating more and more punishment for themselves because of all the sins they do for which they haven't been punished. I agree with this too, although I don't see that there is anything artificial in their punishment. It's not that God keeps track of everything they did, and determines how much burning each sin requires, and then supernaturally keeps them alive so each one can be burned for the appropriate amount.



This looks like backing away from the position you've been holding until now. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying you're not sure if God keeps people supernaturally alive so that they can be burned for an appropriate amount to be punished for their sins. If so, I'm glad you're not sure about it. I hope you come full face, and reject the idea. You say, "it makes sense," but it doesn't. Just think of how awful it makes God to be.

Can you imagine keeping your own son or daughter alive so they could suffer more pain by fire in order to be punished for their bad deeds? We are far more dear to God than our loved ones are to us. He doesn't treat anyone worse that we would.

Sinful humans are preserved alive after sinning by God's grace alone: his kindness keeps them alive, to make time for them to respond to his drawing mercy.

The sight of the living God doesn't instantaneously slay the wicked: Revelation portrays them as having enough time to "cry out to the rocks" to fall on them - the length of time it takes for them to die of shock isn't indicated: perhaps it is as dramatic and slow as we can easily imagine it should be, given their stubborn history and their situation and what they deserve.

Equally, the judgement day of Revelation has a big procession of the wicked under Satan in one last futile attempt to defeat God - pride just doesn't give up, does it?! Yes, separation from the source of life results in death - and repented of sin is such a separation in the end. It is more than grace for the wicked to be kept alive, though: after probation closes, and for those doomed since Lucifer's fall and defeat in heaven, the wicked are sustained by something other than saving grace:...What about God's sovereign will itself: he preserves them to prove his glory true by their own actions, as his love is so inclined. Too many points in one paragraph perhaps!

Isn't it in the GC where the situation of Satan suffering in hell the longest before annihilation is stated: that is suffering the full weight of guilt which the wicked take back from their Saviour to join the wicked angels for whom he did not die. Guilt in its fulness fills one with fear (I can reason theoretically!), but what kills in that situation would be more than ordinary human shock: actual fire is referred to in the Bible and SOP, so how/where else does the wrath of God express itself against sin and unrepentant sinners/evil angels?

Actual fire is referred to in that the earth will be purified by fire, and there will be a lake of fire. We know from the flood that there was a tremendous amount of water underneath the earth's crust, which is far thinner proportionately than an egg shell. The crust lost its integrity, the water burst forth to the atmosphere, and fell to the earth in the form of a deluge. We know there is molten lava under the earth's crust now. It's easy to envision the same thing happening, with fire instead of water this time.

However, this cannot be the fire that kills the wicked. We know for several reasons.

First of all, we are told that the wicked will suffer in proportion to their deeds. Literal fire would kill the wicked equally quickly.

Secondly, we are told:



That which slays the wicked gives life to the righteous. The same idea is expressed in Isaiah 33:



God is the everlasting fire. He is the one who gives life to the righteous. The wicked cannot abide in His presence, because in clinging to sin, the glory of God, which destroys sin, destroys them.

It's clear in all this that literal fire is not being referred to.

The final reason I'll mention here that literal fire is not the means by which the wicked are made to suffer for their sins is that this idea is barbaric and cruel. It is utterly foreign to God's character. God gave His all for the wicked (that's us, you know!) and His love for us doesn't change because He's been rejected (in fact, His love is fire, but that's another study).

When Jesus was urged to send fire down from heaven to destroy the wicked He replied, "You know not of what spirit you are, for the Son of Man came not to destroy man's lives, but to save them." God's spirit does not change.

This does not mean the wicked will not be destroyed, they will be, but God's attitude in this is the same as Jesus expressed when He wept over Jerusalem, the same as God expressed in Hosea crying in anguish, "How can I give you up?!"

God's wrath for sin is expressed in His weeping. "Wrath" is anger, and the reason God is angry at sin is because of what it does to His children, whom He loves so much.

One final quote:



The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary or imposed penalty, but the result of their own choice. Because of their own decisions, the very presence of God becomes a consuming fire.

Of course, Christ is God!

Remember, though, that Christ drove the buyers and sellers out of the temple, and he called the Pharisees snakes and vipers.

He didn't just heal the sick and bless the children.

I still say, "Can't we just let the Bible words stand?"

When we get more specific than God revealed we cause unnecessary disagreement and may fall into error. (Not saying that you are, but that the danger is there.)

Thanks for your comments Inga.



All Christians, well, almost all (all non-Arians or semi-Arians), believe that Christ is God, but, unfortunately very few believe Christ is like God, which is pretty ironic, when you think about it.



He cursed the fig tree. There's that one too.

When Christ spoke against the Pharisees, the Spirit of Prophecy tells us there were tears in His voice. If we picture God, when he speaks against people as having tears in His voice, then we have the right picture, and Christ's so doing serves to do what all His actions served to do, which is to reveal God.

I'll discuss the chasing of the money-changers some other time, if desired, but I find the "though" in your comment very interesting. Remember "though" that Christ drove the buyers and sellers out of the temple. The implication seems to me to be that Christ was here doing something not like Himself, but rather like God, if I'm being clear. (If not, let me know, and I'll elaborate). Have I misunderstood things here? If so, please clarify things for me.



Acts says that "He went about doing God." He was doing good as much in speaking against the Pharisees as He was by blessing the children. Everything He did was good, and everything He did revealed God, who is good.



For one thing, the Bible is an Eastern book, written centuries ago by people in a completely different culture than ours. There's quite a lot that needs to be understood for us to rightly divide the word of truth.



I appreciate your qualifying your remarks here.

I don't think specificity is the problem so much as understanding. God has had throughout history an extraordinarily difficult time in communicating what He wants to in a way that can be understood. The problem is not His, of course, but the problem is there. Even holy angels, we are told in the chapter "It Is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages" had things they did not understand until after the cross. This goes to show just how difficult the Old Testament God was to understand.

Satan is a very crafty foe, able to misrepresent in so many different ways. But when Jesus came and lived amongst us in the flesh, and went through Gethsemane and Calvary, Satan's deceptions were defeated. God as He truly is was manifest, and that light forever settled the Great Controversy in heaven and in the unfallen worlds. There's just one more world to go.

I notice your two points against traditional teachings on hell are arbitrary and cruel. No-one's suggesting arbitrary, for "the wages of sin is death": that's direct cause and effect, legally speaking. As for cruel, dying by burning is cruel, wherever the combustion comes from, humanly speaking, and there'll be humans there!

Fire under the earth's crust must be involved somehow, if not merely burning up the elements above the ground: the earth itself is purified of sin, remember, above and below ground. Then again, how much larva would be left after the 2nd Coming for use in the judgement fire is questionable and improbable.

Fire burns too quickly?...Since proportional punishment is involved, fire's known destructive heat is not necessarily relevant. It says, "Fire came down from God out of heaven," but the judgement was first, with the wicked of all time in the presence of God's own glory: seems sin survives in God's consuming glory for purposes of judgement. Yes, God's glory is a major part of the wicked's destruction, even an act of mercy given their mental torture at losing eternal life, but some sort of natural fire belongs, too, as much as sin is natural to this earth given the Fall. That is fire from both angles.

Cruelty isn't objectionable, given the proportionality of punishment and the full weight of guilt on the mind is psychiatric torture to the likely extent of going insane for it is living the fear of eternal separation from God: such suffering is the wrath of God Christ suffered for all men which none need suffer for himself by unbelief, and that suffering is by scientific definition worse cruelty than being burned alive. It is punishment due sin unrepented of.

You're defining punishment by natural fire as arbitrary due to God's character, but you aren't considering the nature and end of sin itself: how it is to be punished. That punishment does involve God's sorrow, but also his wrath, and thus all natural elements of earth shall be involved, including a lake of fire and last of all death shall have its part. The nature of eternal death isn't so much the time it takes or the means thereof, but the lack of a resurrection, on top of purifying the earth.

There'll be burning and some part of it will be natural, which isn't arbitrary, but part of the process, eh?

Tom, are you assuming that judgment and punishment are not aspects of love?

(The way I see it, biblical love is very different from the warm fuzzy stuff that passes for "love" nowadays.)

The Bible characterizes God as a God of mercy *and* justice. And it seems to me that, somehow, in the final judgment, the sense of justice that God has instilled in all of us will be satisfied. The Bible calls it God's "strange act," but it will be done.

I see your arguments as quite "Maxwellian," but it is in this area that I cannot go along with Graham Maxwell. It is true that in the overall picture, sin destroys, and sinners would self-destruct without God's "interference" to keep them alive. However, it is also true that the Bible records specific instances where God actively destroyed people (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah), and it seems to me that in the final judgment that's exactly what God will be do for the very last time. As He eradicated Sodom and Gomorrah to stop their evil influence, so He will actively destroy sin and sinners on this earth to eradicate sin from the universe.

If the wicked were only destroyed by His Presence, then there would be no need for a second resurrection. The wicked are already dead. They are brought to life specifically for judgment. After their resurrection they demonstrate that their rebellion is utterly incurable because they will try to conquer the city of God with God Himself present in it.

That's when God administers the final judgment by fire. And judgment, to be just, must make a difference between the weak of faith and the abandoned sinner and bold rebel.

Speaking of justice, how do you reconcile God's *justice* with your idea that the destruction of the wicked is exactly the same for everyone, no matter how horribly they sinned? (e.g.according to you, the little girl who was raped by her father and thus could never trust a Father God gets exactly the same 'judgment' as the criminally self-centered father who raped her.)