I would like to know what the SOP also has to say about this. I would do so mysefl, however, I am at work and, therefore, don't have the time to do so.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Now, if as you say, there is no more law, why did John write this?

Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
How can you sin in the law, if there is no law?

Romans3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
If there is no law, how can it witness?

In chapter 7 of Romans, Paul deals with the question of the law, and his conclusion is that the law is just and holy and good.

7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead. [no law, no sin]
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

James had this to say:
1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

If we are to be judged by the 'law of liberty', then it stands to reason we are still bound to obey.
But, having read many of your postings here, and elswhere, I doubt very much you will listen.
If you do not submit your ideas to scripture, the Word in written form, I feel sorry for you when you stand in the judgement and hear that you are to be judged by the very law you say was done away with.

Mike.

Quote.
But to me this scripture teaches that in Jesus we are able to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law and are therefore no longer under the condemnation of a broken law.
Unquote.

I believe that what you are trying to say is; “a believer in Christ is empowered by the Holy Spirit that enables him to obey the law and fulfils it righteous demands.” Am I right?

This is a common statement of belief among Christians, but here too lies their greatest error.

Here is my reasoning that I believe it is the truth of the Gospel of Christ because it corresponds to any writings of the apostles, especially as written by Paul.

It is written twice in the Gospel; “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come” (Galatians 3:19) and “The law was added so that the trespass might increased. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20).

I believe that “added” here means adding the law to something already exists. Since Paul is talking about transgressions or trespasses, then the written law (Torah) that was given to Moses at Sinai was added so that transgressions and trespasses that already exist before there is a written law might be taken into account from there on. Here is the proof: “For before the law (Torah) was given (at Sinai), sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law (Torah)” – Romans 5:13.

Men’s sin is not taken into account IF there is no written law (Torah) because only a written law has the legal right to judge and condemn those who break the law. 1 John 3:4 says; that “sin is transgression to the law”, but if “there is no law (written) there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15). Clear and simple.

Therefore “the law (Torah) was added because of transgression” in order those transgressions might be taken into account as a sin that transgress the law, and thus, has the legal right to judge and condemn those transgressor with death as the wages of sin. It may give also a meaning that the law was added (made written) because the same law in the past was just a spoken law that has no legal jurisdiction over men, and thus, can not judge and condemn those law breakers.

In His love

James S

Why it must be added? Were those spoken commandments, laws and instructions orally spoken by God not enough? Yes, God spoken laws, commandments and instructions since Eden have no legal basic to judge and condemn the transgressors and to carry out God’s great plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. Paul didn’t consider these spoken commandments and instructions from God as a law that has legal jurisdiction over men and has the legal right to judge and condemns their transgression, thus their sins in transgressing God oral law and commandments is not taken into account. This makes them didn’t deserve the death reigned in the world through Adam.

“But, “nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the One to come” – Romans 5:14.

Death according to Paul in Romans 6:23 is the wages of sin and sin according to John is a transgression to the law (written), but since there was no written law yet (only oral laws and spoken commandments), then death as the wage of sin didn’t exist. But in fact, death reigned from Adam till Moses over those who did not sin by breaking a command (there is no written law yet), as did Adam. So, where did this death come from? Surely not from sin in transgressing the law since there was no written law yet, thus, there was no transgression and sin was not taken into account.

Then where did the death come from? Is it God’s creation? I wouldn’t comment on it here, just to say that God who knew what would happen to Adam if he break his command had warned him beforehand about it. “… for when you eat it, you will surely die.”

So, just as what Paul had said, that Adam did not break any of God’s (written) command, thus, his sin was not taken into account and the death was not the wages of sin. Adam did transgress God’s spoken command but there was no legal basic to justify God’s actions that followed after the transgression happened. But to make the law written was already in God’s plan long before his creations fell in sin to justify his actions against sin and saving men through Jesus Christ.

In His love

James S.

We knew that from Adam till Moses before Sinai, all men had received and obeyed God’s spoken commandments and instructions. What made these spoken commandments and instruction different from the law (Torah) given at Sinai to Israel?

God’s spoken law and commandment has no legal rights over men and men were not under its jurisdiction, therefore it could not judge and condemn men for their transgressions (Romans 4:13,14) and their sins is not taken into account (Romans 5:13). God could not justify his actions against men and what happen to them and the solutions he gave them.

This God’s spoken laws and commandments that most of you here insist as the Ten Commandments that existed since the beginning. The only difference it was not written but spoken and thus have no legal right and jurisdiction over men. That’s why according to Paul, before the law (Torah) was given to Moses at Sinai, there is no (legal written) law. The Torah was added because without it, transgressions is not a transgression and sin is not taken into account and could not be punished. The Torah was added so that transgression might increase, because now breaking it is a transgression to a legal law, which is sin and might be taken into account with death as it wages.

What is said as “the law” in Romans 5:13; 4:14; 5:20 & Galatians 3:19 is the Torah with the Ten Commandments in it that was made written and was given to Israel through Moses at Sinai. The spoken commandments and laws of God now was written and became a law that put Israel under it authority and jurisdiction; that has a legal right to judge and condemns it law breakers (Romans 3:19; 2:12,13).

What is the similarity between God’s spoken laws and commandments and the letter of the law given at Sinai (Torah)? They were same, both were based on the same spirit; the love of God, but one is orally spoken and the other is written. The first has no legal jurisdiction over men and breaking it is not a transgression and not a sin that might be taken into account with death as it wages. The latter is a legal law that has legal jurisdiction over men to judge and condemn those who break it, transgression is then a sin that might be taken into account with death as it wage.

This post is to clarify the difference between the spoken commands, laws and instructions of God against the Torah, which is the same law that made written but how it stands against mankind.

With this presentation I hope you might come to understand the true Gospel of Christ.

In His love

James S

Does any man in earth history ever fulfill the righteous demands of the law either the spoken law and Torah the written law trough their keeping and obedience?

Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, were those examples of them that obey the commandments of God before it was made written. Moses, Joshua, Gideon, Samson, Ruth, Samuel, David, Solomon, Job, Nathan, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc, all great kings, warriors and prophets from the OT time were examples of those who were under the law given at Sinai. They all have one in common, they all were saved by God’s grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:23,24) and justified by their faith in the coming Savior (Hebrew 11:1-39).

What does this means? Isn’t obedience to the law brings life? Read Leviticus 18:4, 5; read Jesus reply to the young rich man; “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments” – Matthew 19:16-19; read John 12:50 – “his commandments is life eternal.”

So, why all these great saints, those who were not under the law of Sinai and those who were under it that must keep and obey the law perfectly were justified by their faith and saved by the grace of God instead justified by the law that brought life?

The Scripture answer it with; “because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”; all men are alike under sin”, no man is righteous, no man that do good.” - Romans 3:9,10,12,23. This made them could not perform a righteous life that fulfills the law demands through obedience. The best they could obey and fulfill is only the letter of the law.

Do you think that those people I mentioned above were those who sought righteousness by the law as Israel in common did (Romans 9:31,32)? No, not at all! They knew the purpose of the law and clings to God with faith for hope of salvation through his grace. Are you any better than them, are you greater than them? No, there is no difference between you and them, you are under sin (Romans 3:9), under the law (Romans 3:19) and oblige to keep the law just as they were. You keep the law with faith in Christ just as they did with their faith in the coming Savior pictured in the law.

So, if none of them had been justified by the law that indicates none of them fulfilled the righteous demands of the law through obedience with their faith in the coming Christ, what make you believe that your case would be different?

If you might fulfill the righteous demands of the law through faith, so would they also. But it is an undeniable fact that none of them fulfilled the righteous demands of the law because none of them was justified by the law (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16; 3:11). They all were sinners or lawbreakers saved by grace (Romans 3:23,24; 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 Timothy 1:15; Titus 2:11; 3:4,5) and justified by their faith in Christ (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8).

In His love

James S

ONLY one Man in earth history that fulfilled the righteous demands of the law and got his life as a reward, his name is Jesus Christ our Lord, our Redeemer and Savior of the world. Although he was murdered but he rose from the death at the 3rd day, which was the proof of his righteousness and love to mankind that fulfils the law demands in every aspects (Romans 8:3). “Christ is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 10:4) because Christ is love (1 John 4:16) and love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10). The law then justifies Christ, it can do nothing else and reward him with life.

Imagine, if you say that you through your faith in Christ might fulfill the righteous demands of the law with your obedience, would not the law justify you also, it has no reason for not justifying you and gives you life (Romans 2:13; Galatians 2:21; 3:12). So, you would be another Jesus Christ walking on earth, and so would be all the great saints, prophets, and kings I mentioned above. None of them need a Savior because they got their life back through their perfect obedience and justified by the law that brought life, just as Christ did. Moreover, since it is by the help of the Spirit that enables you and them to perform a perfect obedience (as you believe that), then the Spirit is the Savior.

Since that is not so and would never come true, there must be another logical reason stated in the Scripture.

This means that faith in Christ does not help you and them to perform a perfect righteous life that fulfils the law demands. In other word your obedience is not perfect, you still did sins that transgress the law, so that, the law could not justify you as it did with Christ. Therefore God saved you by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and justify you by your faith in him that allows you to enter heaven, not taking your sins into account.

Therefore as what the Scripture said in Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:10; Corinthians 3:6-9; it clarified why Christ must make an end to the law, why the law was declared for a short period of time only (Luke 16:16; Galatians 3:17,19)? It was for the goodness of mankind, that they should no longer obey the letter of law that made them come under the jurisdiction of the law and under its condemnation for not fulfilling it righteous demands after the redemption took place. Since Christ had been sacrificed to redeem man, there should be no longer a single law that stands that required men’s obedience and putting men under its condemnation, because Christ would not come back again to redeem them again and again.

In His love

James S

2 Peter3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I am not an educated man (by the worlds definition of educated), but, I can see fairly clearly as long as someone isn't blowin' smoke to confuse the issue.

I am usually overlooked in these discussions, probably because I don't have a flair for writing, but, this I know, if God says it, it's so.
God (Jesus) said He came not to destroy (do away with) the law, but to fulfil it. (see above)
He also said until heaven and earth pass away, not one point (jot or tittle) should pass away (be done away with).
Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Paul says the carnal mind isn't subject to the law of God.
What law? The law of God.

Jermiah said this :
31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
God's law is to be written in the hearts of His children, therefor they must be subject to it as it will be a part of them, a part of their character, just as it is a written form of the character of God.

I can not say that your refusal of this and anything others says is not important to me, because it is.
I do not relish the destruction of anyone, and wish I had the speech and thought processes that would enable me to share with others, but I must depend on my crude attempts and rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret to others.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Inorder for Lucifer to become Satan, he had to spiritually change. We know he did spiritually change - for his inventions work all too well upon us.

The question is then why would Lucifer (light bearer) become named Satan - (Accuser & destroyer) then be forced out of Heaven, if there was no written law under the throne of God; then sin could not be imputed unto Lucifer / Satan & he could not be authorized to be exiled from Heaven & set apart unto the death sentence of the lake of fire. ( See Jude).

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( I will give all the SOP quotes I can find using word & phrase searchs - omitting repeats.)

"The Lord then graciously condescended to come down upon Mount Sinai, not to give a new law, but to speak with an audible voice, in the hearing of all the people, the law which had been from the beginning the foundation of his government. He would not permit even angels to communicate these sacred precepts to men, nor did he trust them to the memory of a people who were prone to forget his requirements. He would remove all possibility of misunderstanding, of mingling any tradition with the ten commandments of the moral law, or of confusing the divine requirements with the practices of men; and to do this, he not only spoke the ten words of the moral law in the hearing of all Israel, but he wrote them with his own finger upon tables of stone. {ST, May 6, 1886 par. 3}

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Christ came to our world to become our sacrifice. He came to discover to our eyes the gems of truth, to place them in a new setting,--the frame-work of truth. He brought out of the treasure-house of God things new and old, that we might be able to trace down the links in the great plan of salvation. Through the sacrificial offerings of the Jewish dispensation, we are pointed forward to Christ, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. When Christ came, it was to engage in the conflict with the enemy of God and man, on this earth, in the sight of the universe of heaven. But why was it necessary to wage the warfare in the sight of other worlds?--It was because Satan had been an exalted angel, and when he fell, he induced many angels to join him in his revolt against God's government. He worked in the minds of the angels as he works in the minds of men today. He made a pretension of loyalty to God, and yet he argued that angels should not be under law. He inculcated his ideas, his rebellion and enmity, and hatred of God's law originated in the minds of the angels in heaven through his influence. He caused the fall of man through the same temptations with which he had caused the fall of angels; and in the world where he proposed to work out his principles of rebellion, the battle had to be fought, that all might behold the real nature and results of disobedience to God's great moral standard. He represented God in a false light, clothing him with his own attributes. Christ came to represent the Father in his true character. He showed that he was not an arbitrary judge, ready to bring judgments upon men, and delighting in condemning and punishing them for their evil deeds. The Lord proclaimed his character to Moses in the mount. "And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." {ST, November 18, 1889 par. 6}

(If there was no 10 commandment law in Heaven, there would be nothing to fight against.)
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Sin in Eden could not exist without law that said it's violation would be sin. Oral proclamation in Eden could accuratly portray the written copy under God's throne.

"On every hand we can see the terrible results of the selfishness that led Adam to transgress God's law. The taking of the forbidden fruit--seemingly so small a matter--resulted in opening the floodgates of woe upon the world. To this transgression can be traced all the violence and the crime now existing. And when in this age of the world the principles of justice and mercy are in any way violated in word or deed, there is committed a sin of far greater magnitude than the sin that was committed in Eden; for sin was a new thing to our first parents. {7MR 238.2}

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The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {Mar 79.5}
But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons.... Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." {Mar 79.6}

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But the original law of God is safely deposited in the ark in the heavenly sanctuary, and will be presented to man just as God engraved it on the tables of stone. To the king on his throne and the humblest of his subjects, the law of righteousness will constitute the standard of character, and by its precepts will every work be tried and every thought be brought into examination. The fourth commandment will be found in the bosom of the Decalogue just as it was written by the finger of God, and every soul who has presumed to exalt the false sabbath above the Sabbath which was sanctified and blessed and given to mankind for respect and observance, will be found out of harmony with the law of God. God gave the Sabbath to be a sign between him and his people, that they might know that it was the Lord who was their sanctifier. Those who have knowingly trampled upon the true Sabbath, while they have exalted to its place a spurious institution, will have to answer for their action before the Lord who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is therein. God has proclaimed himself a jealous God. {ST, November 14, 1895 par. 7}

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At Sinai the law was spoken; and a copy of it, on two tables of stone, "written with the finger of God," was delivered to Moses (Ex. 31:18). And through nearly forty years of wandering the Israelites were constantly reminded of God's appointed rest day, by the withholding of the manna every seventh day and the miraculous preservation of the double portion that fell on the preparation day. {LHU 137.3}

(That small two tablets of stone were a copy of the original law kept in Heaven.)

Henceforth the people were to be honored with the abiding presence of their King. "I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God," "and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory" (Exodus 29:45, 43), was the assurance given to Moses. As the symbol of God's authority and the embodiment of His will, there was delivered to Moses a copy of the Decalogue engraved by the finger of God Himself upon two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 9:10; Exodus 32:15, 16), to be sacredly enshrined in the sanctuary, which, when made, was to be the visible center of the nation's worship. {PP 314.1}

* * * They had by faith followed their High Priest from the holy to the most holy, and they saw him pleading his blood before the ark of God. Within that sacred ark is the Father's law, the same that was spoken by God himself amid the thunders of Sinai, and written with his own finger on the tables of stone. Not one command has been annulled; not a jot or tittle has been changed. While God gave to Moses a copy of his law, he preserved the great original in the sanctuary above. Tracing down its holy precepts, the seekers for truth found, in the very bosom of the decalogue, the fourth commandment, as it was first proclaimed: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." [EX. 20:8-11.] {4SP 273.3}

In holy vision John was taken into the heavenly sanctuary. He says: "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." "And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." The sanctuary that Moses was commanded to make was to be after the pattern of the heavenly sanctuary. In the ark were placed the ten commandments which had been written by the finger of God. The law that was placed in the ark on earth was a copy of the law that is contained in the ark of the testament in heaven, and the precepts of Jehovah are immutable. The ten commandments constitute the moral standard of character. God requires on the part of man perfect conformity to his law, and a curse is pronounced against everyone who continues not in all things written in the law to do them. {ST, June 11, 1894 par. 10}
The human race do not stand in the righteousness of character which Adam possessed at his creation. Although neglect to keep the requirements of God is sin, and the wages of sin is death, yet there is no claim made that man may have eternal life except through the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ, who is the representative and head of all humanity. The sinner can find hope only through dependence upon the perfection of Christ. We are to avail ourselves of the merit of the sinless offering that was made through the death of the only-begotten Son of God. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Gerry, thank you for sharing. Whether or not God empowers us to obey His law, this side of the cross, is a no brainer. The quotes you posted, and the quotes others have posted, leave no room for question. James, for whatever reason, cannot comprehend the truth about the law and obedience. And no one has been able show him otherwise. He has hardened his heart against the truth, which is truly sad.