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Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95568
02/11/08 02:49 PM
02/11/08 02:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Thomas, earlier on this thread I posted Bible quotes. Like you, I am also quoting other sources. I am simply saying God guided the species of animals that He created onto the ark, that He did not guide the ones He didn't "create", and that the species He didn't "create" perished in the flood resulting in their extinction. I guess it doesn't matter if we call the original species God created "dinosaurs", so long as we agree He created them.

Do you disagree with these observations?

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95576
02/11/08 03:26 PM
02/11/08 03:26 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
Usually one would say that a harmful mutation is such that it is negative to the entity that got it. A mutation that makes a bacteria pathogenic would not be viewed as a harmful mutation.

It is indeed negative for the bacteria and virus themselves, because if they cause the death of the being they invade, they are virtually causing their own death.
Not if the bacteria would be killed by the host immune defence without the mutation. Then the bacteria wins in the long run if even one other host is infected before the current host dies.
 Quote:

 Quote:
But considering the statements previously that I am "finding fault" with, that between creation and sometime in the late 19th century humans and animals underwent amalgamation and this can be seen in certain races of men, or that God did not create dinosaurs but that they were genetic experiments. None of these statements are "well-established scientific facts". That researchers today are finding ways to genetically modify animals to include human parts is an entierly different thing from saying that the anicents did the same, from any well-established scientific point of view. Also, mixing humans and mice is a different thing from creating a mouse from scratch. Maybe science will learn to do that aswell some day, but presently it is still not so as far as I know. Also, the race of humans which the anicents amalgamated with some unmentioned animals, which race would that be? Europeans? Asians? Brasilians perhaps?

First, Ellen White is speaking of amalgamation of men and of animals, not of men with animals.
Uhm, ok, but then I do not understand why you felt it appropriate to use the national geographic article as an example, considering that its topic is very specifically mixing human and animal cells.
 Quote:

I'll transcribe from the White Estate, since there is no link:

Amalgamation of man and beast
Some have charged that Ellen White wrote in 1864 (and republished in 1870) that humans once cohabited with animals and that their offspring produced certain races that exist today. The statement reads: "But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before Him." [1]

No dictionary has ever used "amalgamation" to describe the cohabitation of man with beast. The primary use of the word describes the fusion of metals, the union of different elements such as in making tooth cements. Nineteenth-century usage included the mixing of diverse races.
Like the groups known as mullato and latino in america?
 Quote:

Granted, her statement could appear ambiguous: Does she mean "amalgamation of man with beast" or "amalgamation of man and of beast"? Often, repetition of the preposition is omitted in similar construction. [2]

On other occasions, when Mrs. White used the word "amalgamation," she used it metaphorically, comparing faithful believers and worldlings. [3] She also used it to describe the origin of poisonous plants and other irregularities in the biological world: "Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. . . . All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares." [4]

Recognizing that Satan has been an active agent in the corrupting of God's plan for man, beast, plants, etc., we can better understand what Ellen White may have meant when she described the results of amalgamation. That which "defaced the image of God" in man and that which "confused the species [of animals]" has been the handiwork of Satan with the cooperation of humans. Such "amalgamation of man and [of] beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men," becomes understandable.
Does this suggest that Ellen meant by amalgamation the same as Augustine meant by original sin? In such case this is only confusing to anyone today.
 Quote:

Mrs. White never hinted of subhuman beings or any kind of hybrid animal-human relationship. She did speak of "species of animals" and "races of men" but not any kind of amalgam of animals with human beings.

We recognize, however, that serious students of Ellen White's writings differ on what she meant by "amalgamation." "The burden of proof rests on those who affirm that Mrs. White gave a new and alien meaning to the term." [5]
Considering that it has now been stated that the word amalgamation has native meaning in the diciplines of metalurgu and the race science that peaked in the Nazi furnances, which meaning do we want to attribute to Ellen?
 Quote:

[1] Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 64. "Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men" (page 75).

[2] "We might speak of the scattering of man and beast over the earth, but we do not therefore mean that previously man and beast were fused in one mass at one geographical spot. We simply mean the scattering of man over the earth and the scattering of beasts over the earth, though the original location of the two groups might have been on opposite sides of the earth. In other words, the scattering of man and of beast" (Francis D. Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics, p. 308).

[3] "Those who profess to be followers of Christ, should be living agencies, cooperating with heavenly intelligences; but by union with the world, the character of God's people becomes tarnished, and through amalgamation with the corrupt, the fine gold becomes dim" (Review and Herald, Aug. 23, 1892; see also The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, p. 144 and The Upward Look, p. 318).

[4] Selected Messages, book 2, p. 288.

[5] Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics, p. 308.



Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95577
02/11/08 03:32 PM
02/11/08 03:32 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
Also, mixing humans and mice is a different thing from creating a mouse from scratch.

Who said any animal would have been created from scratch? Satan and humans can only make changes through genetic manipulation and engeneering. They can't create from scratch.
In such case God created dinosaurs which satan or humans tweaked later. But then it makes no difference for the purposes of this thread, where several members have tried to show that no dinosaurs are alive today because they were not on the ark because God did not create them. But with the admision that humans and others can only made changes to such animals which God has created, and since it is an undisputed fact that dinosaurs did exist, therefore God must have created them, even though some of the subspecies might have been tweaked by other entities.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: vastergotland] #95586
02/11/08 05:19 PM
02/11/08 05:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Let's assume for the moment that animals and plants are such as we know them now, that God created plants with thorns, and carnivores for example. Let's consider the carnivores specifically. If God created animals to live by killing other animals and eating them, even before Adam and Eve sinned, then death is a part of creation, and not something dependent upon sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95588
02/11/08 05:24 PM
02/11/08 05:24 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
By the way, when Ellen White speaks of the evidence of amalgation in certain races of men, she may be referring to certain physical traits besides the spiritual aspect - perhaps a combination of both. Of course through amalgamation certain physical traits are reinforced or modified. This article and many others use the term "amalgamation" and comment about the effect of this regarding physical traits.
I am wondering if they are using the word here with the meaning of "fused together"?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Mountain Man] #95589
02/11/08 05:27 PM
02/11/08 05:27 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, earlier on this thread I posted Bible quotes. Like you, I am also quoting other sources. I am simply saying God guided the species of animals that He created onto the ark, that He did not guide the ones He didn't "create", and that the species He didn't "create" perished in the flood resulting in their extinction. I guess it doesn't matter if we call the original species God created "dinosaurs", so long as we agree He created them.

Do you disagree with these observations?

With the marked modifications above, I would be ok with it.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: vastergotland] #95590
02/11/08 05:51 PM
02/11/08 05:51 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
 Quote:
It is indeed negative for the bacteria and virus themselves, because if they cause the death of the being they invade, they are virtually causing their own death.

Not if the bacteria would be killed by the host immune defence without the mutation. Then the bacteria wins in the long run if even one other host is infected before the current host dies.

But without the mutation the bacteria would not have been pathogenic in the first place (this was my presupposition), therefore it wouldn't have been killed by the host's immune system.

 Quote:
 Quote:
Nineteenth-century usage included the mixing of diverse races.

Like the groups known as mullato and latino in america?

I would point out that the word was not used in this sense only in the nineteenth century. It's used in this sense through this day, as we can see in this article, for instance, which includes a definition of the term:
amalgamation - process of ethnically or genetically diverse populations uniting through marriage, resulting in a "mixed" population.

 Quote:
Does this suggest that Ellen meant by amalgamation the same as Augustine meant by original sin? In such case this is only confusing to anyone today.

One nuance of the word would be the mixing, through marriage, of God’s followers with those who do not follow God.

 Quote:
But with the admision that humans and others can only made changes to such animals which God has created, and since it is an undisputed fact that dinosaurs did exist, therefore God must have created them, even though some of the subspecies might have been tweaked by other entities.

We have two quotes – one which says that genetically manipulated animals perished in the flood and one which says that a very large class of animals perished in the flood. Maybe some of the latter hadn’t been genetically manipulated, however God saw that, with the weakening of the race, they would represent a problem for future generations.

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95592
02/11/08 06:16 PM
02/11/08 06:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
We have two quotes – one which says that genetically manipulated animals perished in the flood and one which says that a very large class of animals perished in the flood.


By way of clarification, do you mean "a very large class of animals" or "a class of very large animals"?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Tom] #95593
02/11/08 07:56 PM
02/11/08 07:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
You are right, Tom. "A class of very large animals." \:\)

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95617
02/13/08 05:49 PM
02/13/08 05:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, then we agree. None of the original species of animals that God created perished or became extinct in the flood. Or, did I misunderstand you?

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